SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[raisindot]

WARNING WILL ROBINSON: NON-SNUFF SPOILER AHEAD!

I digress hugely but to suggest that Discworld trolls and dwarves were more than the recipients of general 'speciesism' to the point they were hunted and enslaved just isn't on the map. In John Keel's time there was 'just' no good reason for them to become economic migrants in AM - that's all, whether or not they were 'wanted' there.
Discuss

Sure it's on the map. Maybe not on the map of AM (because, really, it's doubtful any human there would try to actually kill or enslave a troll or dwarf unless they were suicidal). But certainly in Uberwald, as indicated by the mounted troll's head on the wall of the Ankh Morpork embassy in Bjonk in TFE. At some point, in Uberwald at least, trolls were hunted by humans for sport.

 

[raisindot]

Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.

First you post a warning about spoilers and then you include one in the next sentence. Work of genius, Tony!

All seriousness aside, given that it's hard to discuss one book without tying it to references in other books, I'd say rather than avoid revealing plot details of other books we simply put in a warning at the top of a response that there are other book spoilers. Hopefully, people will resist reading the rest of the message. Does that seem to work?

 

[Tonyblack]

I was trying to be vague.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

WARNING WILL ROBINSON: NON-SNUFF SPOILER AHEAD! Sure it's on the map. Maybe not on the map of AM (because, really, it's doubtful any human there would try to actually kill or enslave a troll or dwarf unless they were suicidal). But certainly in Uberwald, as indicated by the mounted troll's head on the wall of the Ankh Morpork embassy in Bjonk in TFE. At some point, in Uberwald at least, trolls were hunted by humans for sport.

See!!!!! - there is life after pooh... (the Anglo-Japanese type )

Yes Jeff - and no troll ever accidently squished a human - no werewolf ever hunted them and no dwarf ever did whatever it is the dwarves are supposed to do that nobody tells them they're doing That's all sport-related (i.e. tribal ) and nothing to do with slavery or speciesism

 

[Anonymous]

The Wonderful Fanny in all its glory:

http://bricksandbooks.co.uk/2011/the-wonderful-fanny/

 

[Quatermass]

I've just started reading Snuff, and am enjoying it.

 

[Tonyblack]

The Wonderful Fanny in all its glory:

http://bricksandbooks.co.uk/2011/the-wonderful-fanny/

Nice picture, RJH!

 

[DaveC]

I've just started reading Snuff, and am enjoying it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in this discussion when you finish. 8)

 

[Quatermass]

I've just started reading Snuff, and am enjoying it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in this discussion when you finish. 8)

It's probably going to be the first book of my latest book-reading marathon on another BBS, so when I finish it, I'm writing a review to post on that BBS, which I will copy over to here and this thread.

It'll probably be the only Pratchett book on that one, though, I've read virtually all the other Discworld books to date, and the other Pratchett books I'm not sure whether I want to read (Strata being disappointing, though Nation was very good). I'm also hoping to read and finish Little Dorrit, It, and A Game of Thrones.

 

[Willem]

So, I've finally finished it (and reading the last 8 pages on this discussion, which seemed to take longer than reading the book itself )

On the whole, I'm pretty satisfied. It wouldn't rank in my top 10 DW books but it's certainly much, much better than UA. The book managed to be touching.
It feels like a retread in many places, just like Carpe Jugulum felt like a retread of Lords & Ladies.

Things I didn't much care for:
- the return of the Summoning Dark. Superhero powers indeed.
- Stinky... I like the theory that he's Unggue personified, some sort of Goblin God/mischief figure. Could have used some explanation.
- The name of the boat. Fanny... such a poor joke.
- Vetinari's continuing decline. I get the feeling that from the book where it's hinted he paints his hair (going postal I think) on, there have also been hints about him slowly slipping a bit away from his fully in control status. I might be reading too much into it, but it almost feels like Vetinari's got early Alzheimer's too.
- the unbelievable transformation of Feeney in such a short time.
- the other watch members (well, Nobby and Fred) being dragged into the story by the short and curlies. I wouldn't have missed any of that if it was left out.

Things I absolutely didn't mind
- Sam Junior's obsession with poo. Some kids are like this, and it showed a keen interest in how things work. Really not a problem at all with this.

Things I loved
- That last line had me laughing out loud. Such a great, great joke.
- The low stakes for Vimes himself. Some would cite this as a complaint. However, overcoming bigger threats each book makes characters come ever closer to gods until there aren't any threats big enough to be interesting enough to read about. That why I don't mind Granny becoming a supporting character in the Tiffany books: we still get to see her, she's still the same person we love instead of being forced to become an over-the-top charicature.
- Functional use of Wee Mad Arthur
- Mightily Oaks shout out!

 

[Quatermass]

Okay, about a quarter of the way through Snuff, and already, I have laughed out loud. Firstly, when Vimes tells the Bennetts to basically get off their arses and do work, and then secondly when Sybil reveals that she intended for Vimes to do just that!

As for a couple of other complaints made previously, here's me addressing them:

*Vetinari laughing: Pratchett at least points out that this is uncharacteristic of Vetinari, and he is already noted for having considered her a 'nemesis' of sorts. Tony pointed out in another thread that Vetinari enjoys locking horns with someone who can outwit him to a degree. Keep in mind that he is a rather solitary person, psychologically speaking, and having anyone who can match him in some way brings out interesting qualities (Leonard of Quirm, Glenda, Carrot) of respect, after a fashion.

*Sam Jr being obsessed with poo: He's a young kid. Of course he would be. This is coming from a series that had a dragon powered by basically a flatulence-based jet engine, someone dying in a vat of rubber used to make condoms, and Nobby.


Oh, and by the way, Willem, it is Going Postal where it is said that Vetinari dyes his hair. Adora Belle Dearheart is the one who states it while remarking on the stamp featuring Vetinari, although she does seem to be restating rumour ("They say he dyes his hair, you know.").

 

[One Man Bucket]

- the unbelievable transformation of Feeney in such a short time.
- the other watch members (well, Nobby and Fred) being dragged into the story by the short and curlies. I wouldn't have missed any of that if it was left out.

- Feeney wasn't all that shocking considering the rapid transformation of many other characters in other books.

- I expect Pratchett simply wanted to get rid of Fred and Nobby without retiring them. The traffic department and the Police Academy clearly weren't enough to write them out of the story. I'm not sure how I feel about interspecies romance between Nobby and the goblin girl but if they're both sentient and the parts match then whatever I suppose. I do wonder how the dwarf and the troll Sybil mentioned manage to be intimate but that way lies madness.

As I mentioned earlier Cheery's role could have been played by any female Watch person

 

[Tonyblack]

Feeney was a good cop anyway, he just needed a bit of guidance and to be told that he doesn't answer to the magistrates.

 

[Anonymous]

A side note:

I find it a bit unsettling reading through various reviews and seeing a certain trend:

5-stars giving soley for Vimes.
Not for the plot, not for the style, not even for what the characters do. Just 'it's a vimes novel'

No offense meant, but that is an itty-bitty-bit pathetic, if I may say so.

 

[raisindot]

A side note:

I find it a bit unsettling reading through various reviews and seeing a certain trend:

5-stars giving soley for Vimes.
Not for the plot, not for the style, not even for what the characters do. Just 'it's a vimes novel'

No offense meant, but that is an itty-bitty-bit pathetic, if I may say so.

Sorry, but what's really pathetic is your ongoing judgements of other people's opinions about Snuff when you don't have a legitimate opinion yourself becuse YOU HAVEN'T READ IT.

 

[raisindot]

SPOILERS AVAST!

Yes Jeff - and no troll ever accidently squished a human - no werewolf ever hunted them and no dwarf ever did whatever it is the dwarves are supposed to do that nobody tells them they're doing That's all sport-related (i.e. tribal ) and nothing to do with slavery or speciesism

There's no evidence that the two main non-human species that are continously subject to speciesist comments by humans--trolls and dwarves--ever hunted humans for sport. Sure, they may have killed humans for survival or as the result of a misunderstanding, but never for war itself. (The werewolves don't count; there is no real speciesism against them--just good old fashioned fear.)

Yet, the troll's head on the wall at the AM embassy demonstrates that some humans did hunt trolls for sport. That is speciesism pure and simple.

 

[raisindot]

Oh, and by the way, Willem, it is Going Postal where it is said that Vetinari dyes his hair. Adora Belle Dearheart is the one who states it while remarking on the stamp featuring Vetinari, although she does seem to be restating rumour ("They say he dyes his hair, you know.").

I wouldn't use this as evidence that Vetinari does his dye his hair. For one, it really may simply by Pterry's pun on the inking process, i.e., "[Moist] dyes [Vetinari's] hair [on the stamp], you k now."

More likely, it's simply yet another PTerry comment on the "They say" phenomenon he treated with greater eloquence in The Truth. After all, "they say" lots of things about Vetinari in various books--that he throws mimes into scorpion pits, that he's a vampire, etc. Adorabelle's rumor is Pterry's not-so-funny jibe on the ability of women to cause great damage by focusing on the small things that are the root of men's vanity--such as their hair color.

 

[Quatermass]

Agreed, though less harshly. LilMaibe, I'm not a fan of the Watch books, but I'm still enjoying it. It's actually quite an original setting for a Watch novel (the nearest equivalent could be The Fifth Elephant, which I haven't read in a long time), and the first quarter of it or so is very different. It remains to be seen whether it continues to be so. And keep in mind that you are missing out on a lot of sardonic and even funny commentary on the country and country estates.

But if you want to continue to take potshots about Snuff without reading it (yes, I know it's my fault you read the TV Tropes page, but you could have restrained yourself from reading them), then please don't post in the thread.

 

[Anonymous]

Q, raisin, especially raisin:

Hey, I was talking about the reviews.
I was NOT judging the book, not talking about anything in it.
Just saying that the majority of reviews strikes me as odd as they seem as if those giving them would have also loved the book if Vimes would watch paint dry for 500 pages.

I doubt I need to read a book to find "Because Character X is in it" a 'fulfilling' answer to the question 'What's good about the book'?

And a tiny question raisin:
Would you be just as aggressive towards me about it, forbidding me to forman impression about the book, left alone talk about it or anything concerning it as long as I have not read it if I would be in awe and be praising it?

 

[raisindot]

And a tiny question raisin:
Would you be just as aggressive towards me about it, forbidding me to forman impression about the book, left alone talk about it or anything concerning it as long as I have not read it if I would be in awe and be praising it?

Yes, I would be just as aggressive and critical toward you if you went around saying something to the effect:

"Snuff is the best DW book in ages. See the great reviews it's getting by both readers and reviewers? Therefore, it must be a great book and I think everyone should read it, even though I myself haven't read it, but I can't wait until my copy comes to the library so I can start reading what is clearly a masterpiece. I can't believe why anyone would give Snuff a bad review. Obviously, those giving Snuff a bad review are pathetic."

Especially if you kept on posting the view over and over and over again.

You seem to think that people are criticizing you for being critical. That's not it. If you've read anything I've posted so far, you clearly see that there's a lot I hate about Snuff. What I (and others) are criticizing you for is for continuously criticizing both the book and those who give it positive reviews when you've never read it.