SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[One Man Bucket]

Looking at it from the outside one has to wonder if the hands magic is in, are really the right hands. That being said the only lesson one really needs to learn is when not to use magic which is all the time the way things are going.

 

[Anonymous]

Looking at it from the outside one has to wonder if the hands magic is in, are really the right hands. That being said the only lesson one really needs to learn is when not to use magic which is all the time the way things are going.

Well, imagine people like Carcer or Teatime enroll at the UU...

 

[One Man Bucket]

Neither Ponder, Ridcully or Vetinari are stupid. There'd definitely be checks in place to prevent someone obviously insane joining. I'm pretty sure a Vizier in one of the early UU books was barred from entering due to some mental instability and that was proven out when he did in fact misuse power he received.

 

[Anonymous]

Neither Ponder, Ridcully or Vetinari are stupid. There'd definitely be checks in place to prevent someone obviously insane joining. I'm pretty sure a Vizier in one of the early UU books was barred from entering due to some mental instability and that was proven out when he did in fact misuse power he received.

One word:

Trymon

(And we should really move this discussion to its own topic...Apologies,folks)

 

[raisindot]

No, i actually meant because of the residentual magic in the UU.
Not to mention what magic/technomancy can do in the wrong hands (AKA hands that only got their....err...hands on it because someone with no idea of magic demanded they'll be allowed to get their hands on it)
(Not to mention it's a bit unfair. I mean, Vetinari would never go and force the Assassins' Guild to accept people into their ranks that neither have the money nor are qualified)

Ummm, I thought in one book Vetinari had forced Ridcully to accept either some 'scholarship boys' or others who weren't necessarily identified as 'true wizards.'

Certainly the guilds do accept people who are not necessarily identified as having the required skills at the start or coming from rich families. The Assassins' Guild has a number of these 'scholarship boys.' Inigo Skimmer from TFE was one of them, and Teatime may have been another. Both were far more skilled than their more wealthy classmates. And all the guilds accept orphans laid at their doorstep--Lobsang Long was one of them.

 

[Anonymous]

No, i actually meant because of the residentual magic in the UU.
Not to mention what magic/technomancy can do in the wrong hands (AKA hands that only got their....err...hands on it because someone with no idea of magic demanded they'll be allowed to get their hands on it)
(Not to mention it's a bit unfair. I mean, Vetinari would never go and force the Assassins' Guild to accept people into their ranks that neither have the money nor are qualified)

Ummm, I thought in one book Vetinari had forced Ridcully to accept either some 'scholarship boys' or others who weren't necessarily identified as 'true wizards.'

[...]

It's the short story now published in some editions of snuff (if not all, don't know) Casting out of devilish devices' or something.

I haven't read TFE, so I can't talk bout Inigo, but as for teatime and lobsang, well, they were orphans raised by the respective guilds, to my understanding.
Not, as it seems, what Vetinari wants for the UU, namely people with less skill for magic than Rincewind.

 

[Quatermass]

I'm about four-fifths of the way through Snuff. Once I'm done, I'll post a review.

 

[Quatermass]

I've finished Snuff. Here's the review I did elsewhere on the internet. (And kindly keep in mind that my rating system is my own little idiosyncracy. 8.5/10 is my desired average for any book in a series I like, 7.5/10 is averagely entertaining overall, 6.5/10 is mediocre, etc. Yes, it's a little weird, but it's an idiosyncracy I devloped, so please don't comment on the numerical score. This was also written for a non-Terry Pratchett website.)

REVIEW: Snuff by Terry Pratchett


A few years back, Discworld author Terry Pratchett was diagnosed with a form of Alzheimer's. Fans of the Discworld series were horrified. But even so, Pratchett continued to write the latest entries for the series, as well as a non-Discworld book, Nation. Having read the average (by Discworld standards) Unseen Academicals, the very good Nation, and the excellent (being one of half a dozen books to get a perfect 10 in these book-reading blogs) I Shall Wear Midnight, one considers his affliction no hindrance to his writing ability. With the latest Discworld book, Snuff, now out, I have to wonder whether it is, pun intended, up to snuff...

Samuel Vimes is being made to go on holiday by his wife, Lady Sybil Ramkin. Out to a relaxing stay at her country estate, with their young son, and their butler, the former street fighter Willikins. And for the city-born Vimes, life in the country takes some getting used to. After all, he isn't the Commander of the City Watch out in the country, and the quirks of the country confuse him. But he soon begins to sense something wrong. Strange words have been let slip, and Vimes not only discovers a crime scene, but finds himself being framed for it. After managing to enlist the help of Chief Constable Feeney, the man sent to arrest him on behalf of the local (and self-appointed) magistrates, Vimes discovers that not only has there been a murder, but there have been many. And slavery, too. The victims are perhaps the least liked race on the Discworld, the goblins, said to be the lowest form of sapient life. But to Vimes, murder is murder, slavery is slavery, and he will stop it and bring those responsible to justice, no matter what. He has help, including a goblin whom he deputises, Feeney, and Willikins, as well as the helpful taint of a former adversary, and the City Watch. But he is out of his jurisdiction, he has powerful enemies who believe that they can use their power and influence as they see fit, and they have a devious and deadly enforcer who won't stop until he destroys Vimes...

I am sure that there are many people in the world who would give their soul to write as well as Terry Pratchett does, and despite his 'embuggerance' as he calls it, he still can write extremely well, sweeping people along for the ride like the raging river portrayed on the cover. The use of language is still good, and while there is less humour in Snuff than in some Discworld novels, there's still some hilarious scenes, one of the best being Vimes giving the Discworld equivalent of the Bennets from Pride and Prejudice a lecture to make them find their own work. The story has a dark tone, and the themes explored had been explored in previous Discworld books (The Fifth Elephant, Thud! and Unseen Academicals spring most readily to mind), but overall, the story is quite good.

I have to say, I'm not so much a fan of the City Guard books (or I wasn't until relatively recently), but the characters are fine. Vimes, of course, takes centre stage, and while he is portrayed very well, I have to confess that he has, by this point, become something of a God Mode Stu, even within the Discworld mythos. I mean, after stopping a war from being repeated and defeating the demonic entity known as the Summoning Dark in Thud!, the question comes to mind, what CAN'T Vimes do? This is a relatively minor complaint, as he is shown to be wrestling with his inner darkness so many times, it isn't funny. His wife, Sybil, and Willikins are done well too, being even more expanded from previous roles. Young Sam is a nicely portrayed character, albeit with just a tad too much of a scatological fixation (though that might be natural for a child his age).

Of the other characters, the only ones of real note are Chief Constable Feeney, who is sort of a country constable version of Carrot, Miss Beedle, children's book author and goblin educator, and the goblins, particularly Tears of the Mushroom. Unfortunately, the main villain, Gravid Rust, is too much in the background, and Stratford, while a credible menace, is also rather a generic psycho. I also agree, albeit only slightly, that Vetinari, seen in a few scenes, is a little out of character, and that the scenes with other City Watch members, while still vital to the storyline or at least its context, seem to be added to placate hardcore City Watch fans.

Is there anything else I should mention about Snuff? There's a vague feeling of it being very faintly disjointed. This isn't a whodunnit as much as a whathappened, or even a whyshouldVimescare? In short, it's not quite a mystery novel as much as Vimes pursuing justice for a race very much unloved on the Discworld. The story, then, comes across as slightly heavyhanded on this issue, but not so much as to make it repulsive. One too gets a feeling of the Discworld series being wound down, as two noted characters get possible conclusions to their stories (I won't say who).

Even so, these are relatively minor quibbles for such an excellent book. It's not quite at the level of I Shall Wear Midnight, nor at the Discworld-average level of Unseen Academicals, but it sits right there, alongside Nation (not itself a Discworld book, of course) as one of Pratchett's better works, even if it doesn't rank amongst the best.



9/10

First words: The goblin experience of the world is the cult or perhaps religion of Unggue.

Last words: (Not recorded due to spoilers)

Okay, so, any comments? Other than on the numerical score?

 

[Tonyblack]

I'd pretty much agree with most of that, Q. I think it's interesting that we never actually meet Gravid Rust. He's in such a position of power that he's almost untouchable. I liked the way that Vetinari plans to solve that little problem.

And of course, technically there isn't a crime here. That's the thing that annoys Vimes so much. It looks like murder and slavery and exploitation, but because the goblins aren't recognised as beings protected by the law, no crime has really been committed. That doesn't mean that what is happening to them isn't morally repugnant though.

Pretty good review I'd say.

 

[Quatermass]

Ugh, melon-farming board. My real post is on the next page. :x

 

[Quatermass]

I'd pretty much agree with most of that, Q. I think it's interesting that we never actually meet Gravid Rust. He's in such a position of power that he's almost untouchable. I liked the way that Vetinari plans to solve that little problem.

And very few of the characters are fleshed out as satisfyingly as they once were, even the bit parts.

In fact, I cannot, for the life of me, think of any other Discworld villain who remains offstage as much as Gravid Rust.

And of course, technically there isn't a crime here. That's the thing that annoys Vimes so much. It looks like murder and slavery and exploitation, but because the goblins aren't recognised as beings protected by the law, no crime has really been committed. That doesn't mean that what is happening to them isn't morally repugnant though.

I think he was frustrated that there wasn't a law, because the crime is there. In fact, although Vetinari doesn't condone this at the end, one recurring line is 'the law must start with a crime'. In other words, the crime came first, and the law against it is brought into existence by the recognition of it being a crime. To Vimes, the death of any sentient creature is murder.

Pretty good review I'd say.

Thank you.

My criticism of the character of Vimes at this point still stands, though. He is virtually a God Mode Sue at this point, and most of the Discworld knows it. He got the Summoning Dark to be his ally, for want of a better term. The Summoning Dark, for frack's sake. Basically, the Discworld is divided into three camps: those who admire him like a fanboy, those who don't like him but respect (or fear) his skills, and those about to be caught by him or the City Watch.

Don't get me wrong, he's still a well-written character who constantly struggles with his own darkness, and the story was pretty good, but seriously, where can Vimes go to from here? I mean, where could he have gone to from Thud!, for that matter after stopping the re-enactment of Koom Valley and the Summoning Dark? I reckon this book would have worked earlier in the series, actually, maybe between The Fifth Elephant and Night Watch.

Oh, and the title? Not as much relevance to the story as I thought it would. Pratchett claimed that 'Snuff' had two meanings. I only saw one while reading the story (tobacco), and while Wiktionary also points out that 'snuff' is also obsolete terminology for mucus and smell, it's not exactly an apposite title.

 

[Quatermass]

Oh, and BTW, I noticed something on the Discworld Wiki that I haven't noticed before, and I'm pointing this out now. I doubt that Terry Pratchett would have read the manga Hellsing, but there is quite a similarity between Willikins and Hellsing's Walter C Dornez.

That being said, there's probably a better comparison between Willikins and Lugg from Campion. Which I did see to a degree...

 

[Herron451]

Spoilers and, most likely, complaints, to follow:

Regarding the good:
Young Sam: An awesome little boy. I've know several little boys with that level of obsessive interest in odd subject matter. And excrement, flatulence, and, generally, anything associated with that portion of the anatomy is amazingly funny to boys. Why do you think the Uranus joke is still fresh in elementary school?

Sybil's reliability: One of my warmest feelings in the book is when Sybil sits down to write her letters. Good old Sybil. What an amazing woman.

Vetenari's instability: I genuinely LIKE this in both Snuff and UA. It has been stated multiple time throughout the series how the Patrician's job upsets a person's mind (up until we got Vetenari, that is). What makes him immune? I started noticing little twinges of megalomania back in Thud when the Grand Undertaking started. I thought it was a forgone conclusion that his mind would eventually slip. Could be the set up for the coup de grace story for the City Watch. However, that leads to my main complaint about this book.

Regarding the Bad:
Everyone else's instability: Sybil, Sam, Willikin's, Cheri, and the Summoning Dark all act EXCEPTIONALLY out of character in this, to my mind. Willikin's went from the exceptionally proper butler with a vaguely dangerous side to the smart mouth vigilante sidekick. Terry even created a new character in Fifth Elephant to fulfill the dangerous servant role. But W just changed from our last view of him to this.
Sam went from a man who sincerely loved his wife and son to a man that seemed henpecked every time they were mentioned. Acknowledged, Sybil has been used against him as motivation before, but that was because he loved her, not because she was his wife. Might seem like a fine detail, but it is an important one to me. And when did he start trusting the Summoning Dark? Last I knew, he refused to even believe it existed.

Heavy handedness: The racial moral of this story is a little to aggressive in this one. I get it. The goblins are mistreated. Got it. Understood, thanks. Feet of Clay was so terribly poignant BECAUSE I didn't realize they were "human" until Carrot points it out. I thought of them as robots.

Tediousness: The climactic battle between Vimes and the main villain, Henchman #1, is followed by another chase, another argument, a very anti climactic drama scene, another scene with the nefarious Henchman #1, and then....
Characterization of the new guys: Remember Teatime? Or Mr. Pin? Carcer? I realize the villain here had a name, but he had so little in the way of interesting personality or quirks, that he has already settled into my mind as Henchman #1. Let's not forget other major new players, like Goblin Sidekick, Bumpkin Sidekick, and the Punching Bag Blacksmith. The only one that managed to capture my interest for more than a second was the Colonel.

SO, yeah. That is a lot of complaints, I'll admit. While I still enjoy rereading Mr. Pratchett's books, I feel the last three have been on a par with the first three books in the Discworld series. I didn't start enjoying the series until the three witches were fully introduced, mainly because that is about the same point that he quit making caricatures and started making characters. This book was seriously below Mr. Pratchett's bar, but is still miles above anything else out there right now.

I intend no insult or slight to anyone on this board. This is my opinion and is worth all the paper it is printed on.

Edited for grammar, and typos. It's 2am, don't expect much.

 

[Tonyblack]

Well it's good to see you again, Herron451. Even if I don't necessarily agree with you on everything.

 

[Anonymous]

I feel the last three have been on a par with the first three books in the Discworld series.

Those happen to be amongst my favourite Discworld novels.

 

[Quatermass]

One thing I do agree on is that Stratford isn't exactly a distinguished villain/henchman. He's a cookie-cutter psycho, not at the level of Teatime or Carcer, the characters that spring to mind in comparison.

 

[meerkat]

Teatime and Carcer were ultimately evil. Stratford is just a nasty bit of goods. I think Willikins did everyone a favour.

 

[raisindot]

Herron, I agree with all of your negative criticisms except for the one where you seem to suggest that Sam seemed to love Sybil more in earlier books than here.

I would have to disagree. In previous books, it was never clear whether Sam was truly passionately in love with Sybil or whether he had simply been 'plucked' by her to be her husband and lord. It was always clear that she loved him, in spite of her frustration with his complete devotion to the job. And it was quite clear that he always admired her, and was amazed at her hidden talents that almost only seem to come out at key moments to save the day, but you never really got a sense their love was on equal footing. He tended to demonstrate his love by acting as a protector rather than a lover.

In Snuff, Vimes seems finally to have acknowledge his true love for his wife. He states (or thinks) so on numerous occasions. He even has sex with her at least once. The evolution of their relationship to one of mutual love is one of the better things about the book.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Again, spoiler-proof observations on the comments (on comments etc ).

Split the difference between Herron and Raisin - anyone who's been married longer than the infamous 7 years and had a/some child(ren) on the way will have reached a plateau between extreme passionate love (as in lust at first sight - never believe in love it's always lust... :twisted: ) and contentment, they will have happened at some point in much the same way as a barometer functions, responding to pressure and humidity with the ambient affection quotient determing the stability of the relationship and whether it falls down below toleration into discontent and ultimately gimmeadivorcenowihateyourguts-dom. That is the nature of love and hate and the barmoeter needle will fluctuate every single day (in fact every hour probably) so it's good that we get these odd flashes of dispassion and doubt over all kinds of stuff creeping in with both Sam and Sybil, so it's not a perfect marriage but it is totally believable because there is of course no such thing as perfect

Heavy-handedness/Over-egging of the morals and main themes...

...I've nearly finished my book (1 chapter to go and it's a bugger and then some). As I'm dealing with genocide and people doing very nasty things to each other I have been fortunate in having a really great editor who has been helping me with trying to avoid this and I think she's done a good job because these tendencies with heavy-duty moralising is completely toxic to the point of it being endemic and almost impossible to keep it in the right tone aka 'balanced and rational'.

As a writer Terry and Tolkien have both been major influences on me and they both have problems with this as well (Tolkien tends to mawkishness - Frodo in full blub basically and Terry to lecturing/over-stating - Tiffany Wonderwoman fulfils this for me but you'll all know what I mean) so it's not surprising that I've had a lot of trouble with this as well which is why editors are essential to the structuring of any book because there's always a point where, because you're the storyteller, the story will 'take' you and you'll lose your objectivity because you're in the character's mind or standing right beside them as the action, heinous or heavenly takes place and emotion will happen. It has to if the writing is to be authentic because that's the spark that carries it from being a string of hopefully well-honed words into what strikes that bell in the reader's brain or grasps their guts and twists like hell so that for a moment you're there too to stand witness to the heart and/or soul of great writing.

Doesn't matter if it's sci-fi or chick lit - if it doesn't reach out to you at some point and make you go 'Yes!!!!!' :twisted: or Nooooooooooo!' or some expletive of whatever degree to match the moment, then the storyteller's come unstuck and so's their story because it hasn't connected. I don't know a writer who hasn't failed with this at some time, but the good ones (so for me Tolkien and Terry) don't do it very often.

Here's to Terry not losing his undoubted ooomph too often for a long time to come!

 

[Herron451]

It'd be a funny old world if we were all the same, Tony.
Raisindot: The love thing with Sam and Sybil was meant to show more of the out of character changes within this book. "Old" Sam seemed fully aware of the baggage that came with being married to Sybil and was totally accepting of it. Quite often it was the motivating factor of the book (Fifth Elephant and Night Watch spring immediately to mind). He never seemed resigned by the fact that his wife wanted him to do something. He seemed willing to do it SIMPLY BECAUSE she wanted him to. In this, he seems more, ?frustrated? ?annoyed?, about doing things his wife wanted him to do. And the sex scene "on screen" seemed totally inappropriate to me. Obviously they had sex before, Young Sam exists, But "Old" Sam and "Old" Sybil never would have been caught in romantic conditions by the author before. And the stating love thing was nice, but I felt his actions toward his wife in the previous books proved it. I always considered Sybil a coup of Mr. Pratchett's writing. How can we make our hero act completely outside of his nature without breaking him? Have Sybil want him to.

RJH: More power to ya for liking those books. My opinion doesn't need to be right. If it did, I would call it my fact.