SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
It seems to me that there is a valedictory quality in Pratchett’s last three books. Of these, Unseen Academicals is the weakest. But Pratchett has not used the wizards, in most books, for more serious exploration of humanity, but rather has used them primarily on comic parody. I Shall Wear Midnight does for the witches of Disc world what UA does for the wizards. We get cameo appearances of almost all the witches in the series—including the long-missing Eskarina Smith. In my opinion, this book is stylistically the best Pratchett has ever written. His ability to give a truly terrifying form to our all too easy tendency to scapegoat rather than accepting responsibility is magnificent. I found this book made me distinctly uneasy so powerful is the villain. Snuff is the valedictory book for the watch series, which explains the clever use of cameos of most members of the watch. But it is also shows, in my opinion, the brilliant evolution of the three major characters of this series: Sam Vimes, Havelock Vetinari and Sybil Rankin Vimes.
Sybil achieves her full, three-dimensional characterization for the first time in this book. Pratchett has become comfortable with portraying her femininity as well as her intellectual strength. Sybil is no longer the “loony” rich spinster who kept dragons of GG. He developed her character slowly, moving her from a semi-comic character (eg. The aria in TFE), through her ability to care for Sam and to be a good mother to young Sam. She has an awareness and sense of responsibility that is sadly lacking in most members of the wealthy and/or noble class. She encourages Sam, in this book for the first time, to be a policeman (pursuing those who treat goblins as vermin). She also deliberately sends him to get the “Bennett sisters” to recognize their own worth as women. In this book we see Sybil, for the first time, as a sexual woman. It is, I think, significant that it is Sybil (with Vetinari’s connivance) who forces Sam to take time for a “vacation” at the family estate. She is truly the higher power. Although Sam rescues them, and Vetinari follows his lead in protecting the goblins as a sentient species. it is Sybil with her concert, rather than Vetinari or Sam, who changes the world in a way that only she is capable of doing.
Havelock Vetinari has also evolved over the years represented in the series to the complex character of this book. Chronologically, the brilliant school boy assassin of Night Watch who became the cynical but effective Patrician of the early Watch books, has finally become a human being rather than an elaborate plot device that set Sam (frequently by indirection) problems to solve. Vetinari began to change (after being shot, poisoned, nearly tried for treason) from the aloof, cynical observer of humanity into the still brilliant but now far more complex human who appears in Snuff.
The valedictory quality of this book, however, is most apparent in the way Pratchett has developed the character of Sam. Over and over, Pratchett has Sam acknowledge that he’s not as young as he used to be, that he tires more easily and needs rest while other, younger Constables do the paperwork. Sam was, as Sybil first noted, someone who wanted to arrest the gods for not doing it right, and he still exhibits that commitment to moral right (rather than just the law) in this book. And he dominates the book in volume and is just as active (steering the riverboat to safety, etc.) as ever. But Sam is some six to ten years older than when we last saw him in Thud!, and it shows.
Pratchett deliberately and brilliantly weaves almost all the watch characters from the whole series into cameo appearances in this novel. Most of them have brief but characteristic appearances, but Colon and Nobby—who were with Sam from the beginning—undergo changes that give them more human (or goblin) complexity than they have ever had before.
If I had to choose what Pratchett seems to use as the leitmotif of his satiric work, I think it is summed up in Granny’s comment to Pastor Oates (in CJ) that “…sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.” Even the “lighter novels” such as Reaper Man deal, in some ways, with this theme. And in the early novels, when Pratchett is writing almost straight parody, there are already hints of this philosophical stance. Most of the non-watch books (Truth, MR, GP, MM) have a similar underlying foundation, though it is less apparent than in the witches and watch series. He deserves to be regarded, as Publisher’s Weekly said of him, “Pratchett . . . should be regarded as one of the more significant contemporary English language satirists.” I would go further and assert that he is one of the greatest English satirists and skilled novelists of English or American literature.
Sybil achieves her full, three-dimensional characterization for the first time in this book. Pratchett has become comfortable with portraying her femininity as well as her intellectual strength. Sybil is no longer the “loony” rich spinster who kept dragons of GG. He developed her character slowly, moving her from a semi-comic character (eg. The aria in TFE), through her ability to care for Sam and to be a good mother to young Sam. She has an awareness and sense of responsibility that is sadly lacking in most members of the wealthy and/or noble class. She encourages Sam, in this book for the first time, to be a policeman (pursuing those who treat goblins as vermin). She also deliberately sends him to get the “Bennett sisters” to recognize their own worth as women. In this book we see Sybil, for the first time, as a sexual woman. It is, I think, significant that it is Sybil (with Vetinari’s connivance) who forces Sam to take time for a “vacation” at the family estate. She is truly the higher power. Although Sam rescues them, and Vetinari follows his lead in protecting the goblins as a sentient species. it is Sybil with her concert, rather than Vetinari or Sam, who changes the world in a way that only she is capable of doing.
Havelock Vetinari has also evolved over the years represented in the series to the complex character of this book. Chronologically, the brilliant school boy assassin of Night Watch who became the cynical but effective Patrician of the early Watch books, has finally become a human being rather than an elaborate plot device that set Sam (frequently by indirection) problems to solve. Vetinari began to change (after being shot, poisoned, nearly tried for treason) from the aloof, cynical observer of humanity into the still brilliant but now far more complex human who appears in Snuff.
The valedictory quality of this book, however, is most apparent in the way Pratchett has developed the character of Sam. Over and over, Pratchett has Sam acknowledge that he’s not as young as he used to be, that he tires more easily and needs rest while other, younger Constables do the paperwork. Sam was, as Sybil first noted, someone who wanted to arrest the gods for not doing it right, and he still exhibits that commitment to moral right (rather than just the law) in this book. And he dominates the book in volume and is just as active (steering the riverboat to safety, etc.) as ever. But Sam is some six to ten years older than when we last saw him in Thud!, and it shows.
Pratchett deliberately and brilliantly weaves almost all the watch characters from the whole series into cameo appearances in this novel. Most of them have brief but characteristic appearances, but Colon and Nobby—who were with Sam from the beginning—undergo changes that give them more human (or goblin) complexity than they have ever had before.
If I had to choose what Pratchett seems to use as the leitmotif of his satiric work, I think it is summed up in Granny’s comment to Pastor Oates (in CJ) that “…sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.” Even the “lighter novels” such as Reaper Man deal, in some ways, with this theme. And in the early novels, when Pratchett is writing almost straight parody, there are already hints of this philosophical stance. Most of the non-watch books (Truth, MR, GP, MM) have a similar underlying foundation, though it is less apparent than in the witches and watch series. He deserves to be regarded, as Publisher’s Weekly said of him, “Pratchett . . . should be regarded as one of the more significant contemporary English language satirists.” I would go further and assert that he is one of the greatest English satirists and skilled novelists of English or American literature.
Not really, Q-- although those are meanings. But according to the Free Dictionary:
tr.v. snuffed, snuff·ing, snuffs
1. To extinguish: snuffed out the candles.
2. To put a sudden end to: lives that were snuffed out by car accidents.
3. Slang To kill; murder.
4. To cut off the charred portion of (a candlewick).
[Middle English snoffe, possibly of Low German origin.]
Thus, the goblins were being snuffed out by the production of snuff
tr.v. snuffed, snuff·ing, snuffs
1. To extinguish: snuffed out the candles.
2. To put a sudden end to: lives that were snuffed out by car accidents.
3. Slang To kill; murder.
4. To cut off the charred portion of (a candlewick).
[Middle English snoffe, possibly of Low German origin.]
Thus, the goblins were being snuffed out by the production of snuff
Whilst I might agree with some of the criticisms on here, I disagree with most and I really enjoyed the book overall. I particularly liked the fact that Sam does seem to have fallen in love "properly" with his wife, as previously he definitely respected her but perhaps didn't fancy her. In NW he was even ashamed that she wasn't his first, or perhaps even second, consideration for getting home again.
Considering how disgustingly the goblins were treated, its not surprising that Terry used a different species instead of a different race of humans. It was hard enough reading about the dead and dying goblins at the plantation, if they were human it would have been a different book altogether.
Three things I would have cut out - the over-long conversation between Vimes and Wilikins regarding the cross-bow, the Colon subplot (bit of a coincidence, that), and the Summoning Dark neatly providing answers. I was also expecting Stratford to be killed by Gravid to stop him from talking, which would mean no blame could be attached to Wilikins (who killed the dwarf before, but that was defence not retribution).
Regarding the discussion on the UU, I thought that students go there in order to become wizards, not because they already are? I think Terry just wanted Vimes to realise that Young Sam is very clever, but unfortunately an alternative university hadn't been written in previously.
Considering how disgustingly the goblins were treated, its not surprising that Terry used a different species instead of a different race of humans. It was hard enough reading about the dead and dying goblins at the plantation, if they were human it would have been a different book altogether.
Three things I would have cut out - the over-long conversation between Vimes and Wilikins regarding the cross-bow, the Colon subplot (bit of a coincidence, that), and the Summoning Dark neatly providing answers. I was also expecting Stratford to be killed by Gravid to stop him from talking, which would mean no blame could be attached to Wilikins (who killed the dwarf before, but that was defence not retribution).
Regarding the discussion on the UU, I thought that students go there in order to become wizards, not because they already are? I think Terry just wanted Vimes to realise that Young Sam is very clever, but unfortunately an alternative university hadn't been written in previously.
What places? I can't remember any. Also, it's not Harry Potter 
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
A
Dotsie said:
What places? I can't remember any. Also, it's not Harry Potter
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
I still doubt you can become a wizard without the slightest trace of magic.
Some of the guild schools (especially the Assassins) are collegiate certainly - witness Pteppic and there's the Quirm College for Young Ladiesthat produced not only Susan Sto Helit but Sybil and Angua's mum Seraphine? Also Miss Tick apparently
I don't think Sam Snr would like Sam Jr at the Assassins however and like Dotsie's saying there seem to be people who've emerged from UU relatively unscathed by magic (Rincewind of course not to mention the Bursar or, like Victor Tugelbend in MP who was there for a long time simply to qualify for an annuity he'd inherited conditional on his being a student?). Most of the faculty itself rarely engage in actual magic if you think about it - it's more about the food and the slanging matches...
and there's the Quirm College for Young Ladiesthat produced not only Susan Sto Helit but Sybil and Angua's mum Seraphine? Also Miss Tick apparently I don't think Sam Snr would like Sam Jr at the Assassins however and like Dotsie's saying there seem to be people who've emerged from UU relatively unscathed by magic (Rincewind of course not to mention the Bursar or, like Victor Tugelbend in MP who was there for a long time simply to qualify for an annuity he'd inherited conditional on his being a student?
). Most of the faculty itself rarely engage in actual magic if you think about it - it's more about the food and the slanging matches...
I agree, Dotsie. There seems to be a severe shortage of non-magical Universities in the Disc world. Dr. Lawn, for example, had to get his medical training in Klatch (which is why he's so much better than the average AM doctor). Perhaps they'll need to start a new educational foundation. I do think that students at UU have to be sponsored by a wizard (as was true in Equal Rites)--at least then. I suspect they are supposed to have some magical talent, and even Rincewind has some--he's got the one great spell (which may explain why he can't learn any others).
Everything else I cut from your message I didn't agree with, but most of this I do. In past books, his complaints against what Sybil asked him to do were pretty minor--he whined about Sybil's BLT sandwich monitoring and wearing tights and plumes and other namby clothes and put up a bit of weak resistance about going to society shindogs (but nearly always found any excuse to leave early) but always gave in with same kind of resigned obedience Rumpole gave his own SWMBO.
I find his endless complaining about going to the country at the beginning of Snuff to be extremely annoying and out of character. It's very uncharacteristic of Vimes to be carrying on like a spoiled child for so long and this bitching goes on for ages and it's not funny at all.
By this point in his career and his marriage, he knows that he must do whatever Sybil tells him to. Given that he's spent the last six years of his life stopping wars and attending endless peace negotiations between the trolls and dwarfs, while one would imagine he's spent countless hours at dinners with the hoity toity of AM and elsewhere, his petulant behavior in this section makes no sense, and, to me, is just another example of Pterry's narrative excesses in the book.
I find his endless complaining about going to the country at the beginning of Snuff to be extremely annoying and out of character. It's very uncharacteristic of Vimes to be carrying on like a spoiled child for so long and this bitching goes on for ages and it's not funny at all.
By this point in his career and his marriage, he knows that he must do whatever Sybil tells him to. Given that he's spent the last six years of his life stopping wars and attending endless peace negotiations between the trolls and dwarfs, while one would imagine he's spent countless hours at dinners with the hoity toity of AM and elsewhere, his petulant behavior in this section makes no sense, and, to me, is just another example of Pterry's narrative excesses in the book.
LilMaibe said:
Dotsie said:
What places? I can't remember any. Also, it's not Harry Potter
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
Not many people are born wizards I think. The 8th son of an 8th son guarantees it, but it's possible to become a wizard without that. Witches on the other hand definitely require a natural aptitude, but that's not even necessarily about magic.
I still doubt you can become a wizard without the slightest trace of magic.
*May multiply without warning and at the discretion of the question-asker. Address any complaints to The Place Where the Sun Doesn't Shine, Slice, Lancre Kingdom.
I agree that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but since Pooh isn't around to say that this is utter tosh, I'll have to say, it may be your opinion BUT
I reread (for the 4th time) the opening pages of Snuff after reading your post, and you really contradict yourself between the first and latter paragraphs. But the last part of your post is just plain wrong.
It is entirely within character for Sam to try all possible excuses to avoid (as he has successfully done since they were married some years ago) visiting the country estate that now belongs to him, rather than Sibyl.
What support do you have for your assertion that he's been spending the last 6 years stopping wars, attending negotiations, and dining with society. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that he has gone back to Uberwald since Thud! , and that was before young Sam's birth. He has spent his life ducking out of the "required" dinners and/or receptions half way through the affair, on the excuse that the Watch needs him.
He struggles to escape again, and engages in the machinations with his badge which seems to be Vetinari's contrabution to forcing him to take a vacation,, to avoid being made to feel uncomfortable, out-of-place, and without the knowledge of accepted behavior for this class. He literally has no idea how to behave with the servants at Ramkin Hall.
He's in a strange. foreign enviornment. Naturally, he thinks he can't sleep because of the silence, and the birdsong startles him into wakefullness in the morning. None of this qualifies, I think, as being petulant! Instead, it is a chance to demonstrate that part of Sam's character and uneasiness.
I found myself being impressed and enthralled by Pratchett's ability to make me feelf Sam's uneasiness the first few times he goes out (eg. to the pub). Sam finds anywhere outside of Ank-Morpork some type of foreign country and in a very few pages Pratchett shows that Sam's very real fears turn into a growing level of comfort once he finds a crime (even if killing goblins isn't technically a crime at the time). This is first-rate writing, not "narrative excess" as you call it.
I reread (for the 4th time) the opening pages of Snuff after reading your post, and you really contradict yourself between the first and latter paragraphs. But the last part of your post is just plain wrong.
It is entirely within character for Sam to try all possible excuses to avoid (as he has successfully done since they were married some years ago) visiting the country estate that now belongs to him, rather than Sibyl.
What support do you have for your assertion that he's been spending the last 6 years stopping wars, attending negotiations, and dining with society. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that he has gone back to Uberwald since Thud! , and that was before young Sam's birth. He has spent his life ducking out of the "required" dinners and/or receptions half way through the affair, on the excuse that the Watch needs him.
He struggles to escape again, and engages in the machinations with his badge which seems to be Vetinari's contrabution to forcing him to take a vacation,, to avoid being made to feel uncomfortable, out-of-place, and without the knowledge of accepted behavior for this class. He literally has no idea how to behave with the servants at Ramkin Hall.
He's in a strange. foreign enviornment. Naturally, he thinks he can't sleep because of the silence, and the birdsong startles him into wakefullness in the morning. None of this qualifies, I think, as being petulant! Instead, it is a chance to demonstrate that part of Sam's character and uneasiness.
I found myself being impressed and enthralled by Pratchett's ability to make me feelf Sam's uneasiness the first few times he goes out (eg. to the pub). Sam finds anywhere outside of Ank-Morpork some type of foreign country and in a very few pages Pratchett shows that Sam's very real fears turn into a growing level of comfort once he finds a crime (even if killing goblins isn't technically a crime at the time). This is first-rate writing, not "narrative excess" as you call it.