SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[raptornx01]

also Cosmo wasn't supposed to be a copy of Gilt and, well, wasn't. The Lavishes weren't in competition with moist they were flat out trying to take the job (and the money) from him. I partly agree with Cabbage, the two books may have hit some of the same beats, but they weren't the same book. and i don't expect Raising Taxes to be the "same".

But i wanna see the book anyway, one because of its set up in MM and two because i wanna see the Undertaking get completed.

and on what i was talking about before

Nah UA i will do on its own. wanna go through it again anyway

i do Hogfather and reaperman in a death book run and maskerade in a witches run.

small gods and pyramids are spacers

 

[Resteasy]

G'day, short time reader, first time poster.

Forgive me if my first post is a little disjointed, it's late and I've just finished work (and I've had a couple of relaxing bevvies).

I enjoyed Snuff. It wasn't the best Discworld book and I don't think it's the worst. Having said that, I don't think there is a worst book. I like all the Discworld books so far written, certainly some more than others and some less so than others, but all books I've ejoyed even for simple reasons.

People have gone on about the changes in characters or the 'out of character behaviour of ....' whatever character.

Lets start with Vetinari. People say it's out of character for Vetinari to behave the way he did with regards to the crossword. Why? We've never really encountered any person who's actually managed to vex the Patrician so how are we to know how he acts? And it's not like he behaves in any outragous manner. At first he "uncharacteristically" laughs out loud, Mr Pratchett even acknowledges it's uncharateristic. Also, "... was close to ranting" But someone would have needed to know him very well to realize this (perhaps only Drumknott). What was he doing?? He was drumming his fingers on the table.

Continuing with Vetinari, he is a changed person from when he appeared in Guards Guards. Can you think of a time when Vetinari would have ever reacted to any news by putting his hand over his eyes? Not the usual stoic behaviour of the Patrician but that's the type of behaviour he displayed in Guards Guards. He even paces up and down when worried and snaps at Lupine Wonse. In fact, in Guards Guards you could say that Vetinari is more animated in behaviour than in any other book he's appeared in.

Sybil. Now Sybil barely manages to make an appearance in many of the earlier books yet people seem to know how she would behave (I'm refering to her use of the word bitch). She features a bit in Guards Guard, very little in Men At Arms, Feet of Clay or Jingo. We've seen her scared, worried, upset but have we really seen her cross / angry. I don't think it is out of character for her to use the word bitch. As another poster said, Vimes has rubbed off on her and as she herself stated, she hates the fact that all the other aristocracy thinks she is like them. As other posters have stated also, she's been more fleshed out (sorry if I'm repeating things already posted).

Vimes. Of course Vimes has changed. He's older now, has a son, he's experienced. As raptornx01 put is so excellently, he has learned.

People have also said that the book is too wordy and didn't like the way that everything had to be explained. Have a look at Feet of Clay, the whole confrontation with Vimes and Dragon King of Arms. That whole section is Vimes verbally explaining everything.

Admittedly, I think the whole Summoning Dark thing could have been handled a little better but I don't have a huge problem with it. I think Vimes was willing to listen to it, not necessarily believe it outright, but listen to it to use what it gave him to gain further information. I mean, in Guards Guards we had Gaspode the talking dog telling Angua what happened. I think Vimes is not entirely comfortable having the Summoning Dark with him but he'll use what he has at his disposal at this time. He doesn't like magic being used to solve crimes but the Summoning Dark isn't magic

I loved Willikins in this. I love how he is protective of Young Sam (and of Vimes and Sybil of course). I like how he subtly tells Vimes off for not spending enough time with Young Sam. I did like his confrontation with Stratford, "And you Mister Stratford, set out to kill Commander Vimes's little lad, or worse. And do you know what is even worser? I reckon that if you'd done so, the commander would have arrested you and dragged you to the nearest police station. But inside he'd be cutting himself up because the poor bugger is scared that he could be as bas as you." Brilliant.

There was lots of great scenes in this book like Vimes earning the trust of Tears of the Mushroom by giving her a photo of his son (but I'll spare you going on and on about them all). Yes, this isn't one of Mr Pratchetts best books but I still think it is a good book and really enjoyed it.

And in my opinion, I'd have to say Night Watch is one of the greatest, if not the greatest books I've ever read.

 

[Tonyblack]

Welcome to the site, Resteasy!

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the site there.
I think when talking about changes in a character you have to look at things from various sides. Of course a every writer has his characters grow, change under what they go through. And a good writer, and usually there is no doubt about Pratchett being one, builds a character up from one point. Like doing embroidery. A good writer can add shiny new thread and sequins to the fabric, but the fabric remains.

What I have seen from many who critique Snuff, UA, ISWM and MM for these things here we have a case where the fabric itself seems to have changed.

As for the wordyness: Yes, there is quite a bit of talk in that scene in FoC, but it's nothing compared to the wordyness of UA or Snuff (made it half way through that one, before anyone complains).

Pratchett had been a master of words, but in the recent books words seem to drown the plot. And these talks are repeative, often giving an information that was given only a few pages before.

That is what bugs people I'd say

 

[Ziriath]

That drumming on the table is a quite interesting thing about Vetinari. He did it in some previous books too. When he does it, for some reason I always think of the 'It's a gas mask' scene in Doctor Who.

 

[high eight]

On the note of Pearwood's post:
Do you folks think one can sort the Discworld books like 'comic ages'

No.

Next question?

 

[DaveC]

On the note of Pearwood's post:
Do you folks think one can sort the Discworld books like 'comic ages'

No.

Next question?

I think you could be right, but they seem pretty well defined by most people already. :shifty:

 

[Anonymous]

Well, not sort them by the same definition as the comic ages but, for example
Stone Age : Mainly parody, trying to find the right style
Golden Age: Neatly balanced between plot and message, style found, Morals are woven neatly into the story
Silver Age: Focus more on single scenes, but still rather well balanced, some style slips here and there, accidentally, perhaps even on purpose.
Dark Age: Focus on morals and darker themes, moral heavy, style slips into long explanations of things (sometimes even jokes)

 

[raptornx01]

Problem with that is they don't track chronologically. Moving Pictures, Witches abroad, and the last hero could fit stone, while being in wildly varying points in his career.

not to mention its highly subjective.

 

[Pam V Dew]

My first post, so please be gentle with me

Firstly, and I may be the only one... I loved Unseen Academicals!

Now About Snuff...

After reading the first 8 pages or so of this thread, I reread the Watch series and am now reading Snuff for the 2nd time... and loving it this time around.

I have a couple of thoughts, and my apologies if anyone else has brought them up before...

1. The Duke... John Wayne... The Quiet Man, where the fight starts in the pub, gets taken outside, and half the village turn up to watch it?

2. Feeny... now that Vimes has 'grown him up', is he intended as a worthy suitor/partner for Tiffany Aching maybe?

 

[meerkat]

WElLCOME Pam!

I adore Snuff. Read it five times now! I WONDERED where I had seen that pub fight before. Just like Sir T to send that up.

As for Tiffany I think she'll stay single with a few male friends.

 

[Tonyblack]

Croeso from me too, Pam!

I liked Unseen Academicals also and Snuff is excellent, but I can't see Feeney hitching up with Tiffany.

 

[Penfold]

Hellooo and welcome Pam. I wasn't too keen on UA on the first read, I'm afraid, but it definitely grew on me in subsequent reads!

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Hi Pam, I did prefer Snuff to UA.

 

[Pam V Dew]

Shwd'mae Tony

... but I can't see Feeney hitching up with Tiffany.

It was something I'd read that made me think they were nearby is all, and being a bit CDO (which is like OCD but with all the letters in alphabetical order like they should be ), I've now found the bits I was looking for...

Ham-on-Rye:

In Snuff it's "just down the road" from the Ramkin country place, and in SSWM it's one of the villages in Tiffany's steading.

It seemed incidental yet significant somehow.

 

[Tonyblack]

I hadn't spotted that. We'll have to see what, if anything, Terry does.

 

[idreamofpikas]

First of all I'd like to state that I quite like UA and MM and adore AHFOS. Although there is a change in his style I dont think it has suffered as much as some people state.

I finished Snuff about a month ago and immediately re-read Men at Arms to see what I didnt like about his latest book. My biggest complaint is that Terry has made Vimes too much of a Gary-Sue and doesn't realize this, unlike say Carrot a deliberate Gary-Sue. The Patrician secretly supports his every move, he somehow married the richest woman in Discworld (Sybil has somehow gone from a woman slightly richer than the other nobles of AM to being as rich as them all combined) and a 2nd in command who can influence almost everyone to do what Vimes wants. To add to that Vimes now has a supernatural godlike power and a butler who is seemingly the most dangerous man alive and will kill Vimes' enemies without getting in his Lords morals dirty.

In the early books one of Vimes defining characteristics was his classism and disgust that the wealthy believed they were above the law. In Snuff he decides that he is not arrested because he doesn't respect the policeman or the people who make the law. He's essentially became what he hated a rich toff who decides his right is better than everybody else's. He's King in all but name; he wants the law to change and it does, he wants his own nation and other nations to respect a race they've treated as vermin and its done, he wants vengeance for someone threatening his sons life and his man servant makes it so or the Patrician organizes a discreet assassination.

Vimes aside it was okay. I wish they used a new character for Wilikins as I liked the warped violent Jeeves in the country. It was good to see discworld countryside and the surge was a good idea done well. I dont understand the criticism for Startford, he was supposed to be a mirror image to Vimes who also had no life and little personality and lived for his job. Were Vimes had the Nightwatch to define his life Stratford had crime.

 

[raptornx01]

You should have read guards guards. Sybil was always the richest person in the city. Vimes was always a kind of marty stu for TP (at least i always felt so). Carrot was always good at getting people to do what he wanted.

really, not much has changed except the watch is now in a much better position then it was.

 

[Anonymous]

There is a difference between a sorta-pet-character and a Gary Stu.
Up till Nightwatch Vimes has been someone who actually worked, using his wits and skills, which were limited.
With Snuff now?
He basically gained superpowers and the problems he's facing aren't that much of a challenge, compared to things he went through pre-nightwatch.
Not to mention Vimes has become a rather omnipresent character. Look at the past few books since Nightwatch and tell me in which he isn't present.

 

[Tonyblack]

Will you all stop it with the "Gary Sue" and "Marty Stus" already!

Most of us have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please try and explain what you mean rather than just using these stupid phrases.