Snuff
- Thread starter poohcarrot
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The Mad Collector said:
raisindot said:
Rincewind does. He runs all the time, although his course ran out books ago.
J-I-B
J-I-B
His role is fairly minor in UA though but hes still hanging around.
On another positive note for him he gets a stamp all to himself.
Rincewind is the avatar for the type.
Nobby Nobbs has to a certain extent acquired a second running joke in the form of his absurd romantic life, surprising and incredible even to other characters in-canon ( the joke of what a Discworld resident would find unbelievable is quite a good one, really ).
Fred Colon has detoured through his tragi-comic promotion into a role essentially similar to Alf Ventris in later episodes of Heartbeat, a popular character who can't be paid off because the audience like to see him, setttled into a reasonably contented quasi-retirement amid his tea, biscuits and street gossip. His role in Night Watch adds further depth. Like Falstaff, he has seen ( and probably done ) dreadful things in his youth and come to terms with them.
The two of them form a durable double-act, generally as the unwitting butt of a range of jokes against them ( Jingo contains a good deal of this sort of thing ). They also represent at times, the Blackadder joke of being a modern man in a historical context, although quite which one is which varies. Colon plays a further role at times, that of appearing to be less stupid than he appears without ever actually producing any real evidence in support of this.
Rincewind doesn't do any of this. There's nothing wrong with being a one-note character of the note is strong enough - Ridcully and Verence being cases in point - but I have long suspected that Rincewind is really a favourite of TP's more than the readers.
Nobby Nobbs has to a certain extent acquired a second running joke in the form of his absurd romantic life, surprising and incredible even to other characters in-canon ( the joke of what a Discworld resident would find unbelievable is quite a good one, really ).
Fred Colon has detoured through his tragi-comic promotion into a role essentially similar to Alf Ventris in later episodes of Heartbeat, a popular character who can't be paid off because the audience like to see him, setttled into a reasonably contented quasi-retirement amid his tea, biscuits and street gossip. His role in Night Watch adds further depth. Like Falstaff, he has seen ( and probably done ) dreadful things in his youth and come to terms with them.
The two of them form a durable double-act, generally as the unwitting butt of a range of jokes against them ( Jingo contains a good deal of this sort of thing ). They also represent at times, the Blackadder joke of being a modern man in a historical context, although quite which one is which varies. Colon plays a further role at times, that of appearing to be less stupid than he appears without ever actually producing any real evidence in support of this.
Rincewind doesn't do any of this. There's nothing wrong with being a one-note character of the note is strong enough - Ridcully and Verence being cases in point - but I have long suspected that Rincewind is really a favourite of TP's more than the readers.
rockershovel, I wrote a response to several of your points but my slow ass computer deleted the whole thing while I was formatting it. I'm a bit too frustrated to type it up again so for now I'll just say welcome to the site.
Here we go:
Carrot would raise the kids no matter what shape they are so it’s merely a matter of how Angua reacts. Carrot will likely never tire of Angua and seeing as she considers herself his dog she won’t be leaving until she considers him unworthy of being her master which seems damn near impossible.
Plot elements from the Witches books that have yet to be explored:
- Agnes Nitt and Perdita X Dream
- Margrat’s new role within the Coven
Both of these seem more than enough for one more book but because Pratchett has wrung Granny dry, we won’t ever see them resolved except as asides in non-Witch books. Now applying that to the Watch, I’d say that we won’t be seeing any more Watch books once Vimes becomes unplottable or risks obvious repetition. The other characters are too poorly developed to carry a Watch book as the main POV.
Nobby was meant to be a figurehead so his competency or lack thereof was irrelevant. Detritus isn’t smart only when locked in a freezer he’s made some pretty insightful comments outside it. He’ll surprise you with how much responsibility he can handle. Anyway, my point is the new Captains will likely be from multiple species as a political manoeuvre rather than the right man for the job though Vimes will make sure they are or become such
Aside from not finishing it I felt the same about Monstrous Regiment. Nation was good but it didn’t seem very Pratchetty.
I too was squicked
When Rhys is openly female, I’ll consider the subject closed.
She was there for the plot in order for Vimes to know the soldiers were female but that aside everytime Vimes has left the city he’s always taken some officers with him.
Here we go:
Carrot would raise the kids no matter what shape they are so it’s merely a matter of how Angua reacts. Carrot will likely never tire of Angua and seeing as she considers herself his dog she won’t be leaving until she considers him unworthy of being her master which seems damn near impossible.
Plot elements from the Witches books that have yet to be explored:
- Agnes Nitt and Perdita X Dream
- Margrat’s new role within the Coven
Both of these seem more than enough for one more book but because Pratchett has wrung Granny dry, we won’t ever see them resolved except as asides in non-Witch books. Now applying that to the Watch, I’d say that we won’t be seeing any more Watch books once Vimes becomes unplottable or risks obvious repetition. The other characters are too poorly developed to carry a Watch book as the main POV.
Nobby was meant to be a figurehead so his competency or lack thereof was irrelevant. Detritus isn’t smart only when locked in a freezer he’s made some pretty insightful comments outside it. He’ll surprise you with how much responsibility he can handle. Anyway, my point is the new Captains will likely be from multiple species as a political manoeuvre rather than the right man for the job though Vimes will make sure they are or become such
Aside from not finishing it I felt the same about Monstrous Regiment. Nation was good but it didn’t seem very Pratchetty.
I too was squicked
When Rhys is openly female, I’ll consider the subject closed.
She was there for the plot in order for Vimes to know the soldiers were female but that aside everytime Vimes has left the city he’s always taken some officers with him.
I'd also like to know more about trolls. Thud opens several new windows on them, and their culture. However the various details available about their language ( written and spoken ) and oral traditions tends to suggest that Detritus would be shrewd, rather than capable of great feats of administration, a natural sergeant in fact.
I can't really see where the Night Kitchen and its various characters could go. Mrs Whitlow provides the ongoing POV character for UU below-stairs, as it were. I could see Glenda as a background character along the lines of Modo the gardener, though. However if there is an Orcs book coming, I'd suspect that this would necessarily include Glenda and Nutt in some way.
I'd suspect that this could also close the Carrot - Angua arc. Angua is now the de-facto heir to the family title and her father is beyond help. I could easily see Angua returning to Uberwald to be the eventual heir to the family castle, quite possibly acting in some capacity involving Vetinari and Lady Margolotta. Vampires may be effectively immortal but werewolves appear to age as humans do? I'd say that Carrot has had the chance and muffed it, and they will always be close but not THAT close, if you take my meaning.
I'd like to see more of Jackrum, too. Jackrum has cashed in most of his/her past favours and can't really continue as a soldier, although the end of MR suggests that the general local warfare in Borogravia continues much as before. However people like that don't just fade away; Jackrum running a coaching inn and various related businesses somewhere on the Uberwald/ Borogravia borders, with fingers in all sorts of pies, sounds interesting.
I can't really see where the Night Kitchen and its various characters could go. Mrs Whitlow provides the ongoing POV character for UU below-stairs, as it were. I could see Glenda as a background character along the lines of Modo the gardener, though. However if there is an Orcs book coming, I'd suspect that this would necessarily include Glenda and Nutt in some way.
I'd suspect that this could also close the Carrot - Angua arc. Angua is now the de-facto heir to the family title and her father is beyond help. I could easily see Angua returning to Uberwald to be the eventual heir to the family castle, quite possibly acting in some capacity involving Vetinari and Lady Margolotta. Vampires may be effectively immortal but werewolves appear to age as humans do? I'd say that Carrot has had the chance and muffed it, and they will always be close but not THAT close, if you take my meaning.
I'd like to see more of Jackrum, too. Jackrum has cashed in most of his/her past favours and can't really continue as a soldier, although the end of MR suggests that the general local warfare in Borogravia continues much as before. However people like that don't just fade away; Jackrum running a coaching inn and various related businesses somewhere on the Uberwald/ Borogravia borders, with fingers in all sorts of pies, sounds interesting.
I'd agree that there are no other characters in the Watch capable of carrying a story, so any future Watch book would have to be an Angua/Carrot story set largely outside A-M - see previous post, though
Vimes has indeed taken other officers in the past, and they have been political choices ( cf Cheery and Detritus in Uberwald ). Assuming Angua wasn't sent by Vetinari BECAUSE Lord V knew about the female soldiers but didn't expect Vimes to spot it unassisted, then she must have been sent to consolidate her promotion, or possibly provide a pretext for it? Watch officers are promoted by Vetinari, not Vimes, after all.
I don't believe there is much more to really say about Agnes/Perdita following her return from A-M ( Maskerade ). Same goes for Magrat and the coven. Peripheral witch-related characters like Miss Tick have been fairly limited and the Tiffany/Ankh-Morpork crossover in ISWM doesn't really work, in my view.
Vimes has indeed taken other officers in the past, and they have been political choices ( cf Cheery and Detritus in Uberwald ). Assuming Angua wasn't sent by Vetinari BECAUSE Lord V knew about the female soldiers but didn't expect Vimes to spot it unassisted, then she must have been sent to consolidate her promotion, or possibly provide a pretext for it? Watch officers are promoted by Vetinari, not Vimes, after all.
I don't believe there is much more to really say about Agnes/Perdita following her return from A-M ( Maskerade ). Same goes for Magrat and the coven. Peripheral witch-related characters like Miss Tick have been fairly limited and the Tiffany/Ankh-Morpork crossover in ISWM doesn't really work, in my view.
The Nomes are finished.
Johnny Maxwell is finished.
Tiffany is finished.
The Silver Hoard are finished.
Teppic is finished.
Jackrum and Polly are finished.
Trev and Jules are finished.
Brutha is finished.
Orcs are finished.
The Watch and its members will never finish.
Carrot will never marry Angua, they will never split up, and Carrot will never become King.
I suspect.
Johnny Maxwell is finished.
Tiffany is finished.
The Silver Hoard are finished.
Teppic is finished.
Jackrum and Polly are finished.
Trev and Jules are finished.
Brutha is finished.
Orcs are finished.
The Watch and its members will never finish.
Carrot will never marry Angua, they will never split up, and Carrot will never become King.
I suspect.
They're more than close enough IMO. You mustn't underestimate the fact that she views herself as his dog. If Carrot wasn't content and wanted to move things further along she'd go with it. Since he seems to be willing to let go at a fairly slow pace the only person who can put spurs to their relationship is Angua and she won't because of her fears. The relationship won't progress or regress.
As for running her clan/pack I don't see it happening since it's strongly implied she hates everything about her relatives and her life before A-M. Unless it was life or death and Carrot was supportive I can't see her doing it. I doubt she'd be advancing up the ranks if she wasn't now resolved to stay
Carrot is rooted in A-M, I don't see him leaving indefinitely. Said story would more than likely end with them going back.
I don't recall Vetinari promoting anyone besides Vimes. Promotions seem to be a matter of Carrot or Vimes making suggestions and Vetinari rubber stamps them.
Different strokes for different folks. I don't consider those issues adequately resolved just as some people might say Thud is as good a place to end the Watch books as any.
As for running her clan/pack I don't see it happening since it's strongly implied she hates everything about her relatives and her life before A-M. Unless it was life or death and Carrot was supportive I can't see her doing it. I doubt she'd be advancing up the ranks if she wasn't now resolved to stay
Carrot is rooted in A-M, I don't see him leaving indefinitely. Said story would more than likely end with them going back.
I don't recall Vetinari promoting anyone besides Vimes. Promotions seem to be a matter of Carrot or Vimes making suggestions and Vetinari rubber stamps them.
Different strokes for different folks. I don't consider those issues adequately resolved just as some people might say Thud is as good a place to end the Watch books as any.
I hadn't thought of Pyramids but I'ds regard that as complete in itself, yes. Also Small Gods.
I don't necessarily regard characters such as Agnes/Perdita as resolved but it's difficult to see quite where they could go next. Lots of things are never resolved in real life, after all.
I'd agree that Carrot and Angua will never marry and Carrot will ( probably ) never leave Ankh-Morpork. I take your point about Angua but I'd understood that to mean that she is too human to accept her status as subordinate to him.
Hard to say about Angua's family. Her yennork brother and sister are now apparently dead, her father is beyond help and her brother Wolfgang is also now dead. ( this is assuming that there are no other brothers and sisters, I'm reading the animals described in the household as Wolfgang and the Baron, since no others are named ).
The politics of Uberwald are changing ( Lady Margolotta clearly has a role in this, as does Rhys Rhysson ) and I could see a role for Angua as the new generation, leading them forward in some degree of collaboration with Vetinari and Lady M.
This would be the resolution; Carrot accompanies Angua to Uberwald where she remains.
a propos promotion; Vetinari promotes Vimes, of course. He attempts to promote Carrot in Vimes' absence, but promotes Colon instead. He also sanctions various changes to the Watch. So, while it's undoubtedly true that Vimes chooses and promotes NCOs ( Colon also promotes at least one during his ill-starred tenure ), and probably chooses and recommends candidates, Vetinari retains the ultimate right to approve or not.
I don't necessarily regard characters such as Agnes/Perdita as resolved but it's difficult to see quite where they could go next. Lots of things are never resolved in real life, after all.
I'd agree that Carrot and Angua will never marry and Carrot will ( probably ) never leave Ankh-Morpork. I take your point about Angua but I'd understood that to mean that she is too human to accept her status as subordinate to him.
Hard to say about Angua's family. Her yennork brother and sister are now apparently dead, her father is beyond help and her brother Wolfgang is also now dead. ( this is assuming that there are no other brothers and sisters, I'm reading the animals described in the household as Wolfgang and the Baron, since no others are named ).
The politics of Uberwald are changing ( Lady Margolotta clearly has a role in this, as does Rhys Rhysson ) and I could see a role for Angua as the new generation, leading them forward in some degree of collaboration with Vetinari and Lady M.
This would be the resolution; Carrot accompanies Angua to Uberwald where she remains.
a propos promotion; Vetinari promotes Vimes, of course. He attempts to promote Carrot in Vimes' absence, but promotes Colon instead. He also sanctions various changes to the Watch. So, while it's undoubtedly true that Vimes chooses and promotes NCOs ( Colon also promotes at least one during his ill-starred tenure ), and probably chooses and recommends candidates, Vetinari retains the ultimate right to approve or not.