Snuff
- Thread starter poohcarrot
- Start date
Carrot would only leave if he felt his absence was better for the city. I vaguely recall Angua saying Carrot lurves the city and I think that applies as much now as ever.
It seems to me that she somewhat resents it but she acknowledges like Gaspode that something that is half human/half wolf can only be a dog.
Her yennork brother is alive and working as a champion sheepdog. I recall her mentioning an aunt during their confrontation at the bridge or was it the corridor when Vimes went to reclaim the Scone or its replica. As such there are relatives who whilst not having as valid a claim can probably take the role if Angua doesn't step forward.
The werewolves were already exactly where people wanted them to be until Wolfgang decided to be all militant. Since he's gone they'll probably cease to be a threat to anybody.
As I said Carrot won't leave and Angua seems to be laying down stronger roots with her accepting one of the most prominent roles in the Watch. I can't see any other way for her to make her bond with A-M stronger without marrying it's King
You've got me there
It seems to me that she somewhat resents it but she acknowledges like Gaspode that something that is half human/half wolf can only be a dog.
Her yennork brother is alive and working as a champion sheepdog. I recall her mentioning an aunt during their confrontation at the bridge or was it the corridor when Vimes went to reclaim the Scone or its replica. As such there are relatives who whilst not having as valid a claim can probably take the role if Angua doesn't step forward.
The werewolves were already exactly where people wanted them to be until Wolfgang decided to be all militant. Since he's gone they'll probably cease to be a threat to anybody.
As I said Carrot won't leave and Angua seems to be laying down stronger roots with her accepting one of the most prominent roles in the Watch. I can't see any other way for her to make her bond with A-M stronger without marrying it's King
You've got me there
you're right about Angua's sheepdog brother, she mentions it to Carrot at one point. Her sister was killed by the other brother, Wolfgang.
I was confusing him with Cheery's late brother - who was killed working as a knockerman
The resolution of the Carrot/Angua relationship will be whatever TP makes it!
I was confusing him with Cheery's late brother - who was killed working as a knockerman
The resolution of the Carrot/Angua relationship will be whatever TP makes it!
True but based on the evidence so far it seems the relationship is stuck in a rut and only Angua can change that for better or worse. The question is whether she will while she accepts a subordinate role to Carrot. I believe Salacia is the key to Angua ceasing to be the bitch and becoming an equal partner in the relationship.
Welcome to the site, Malligant! 
I get the feeling that Angua has pretty much turned her back on Uberwald. Her parents are werewolves and as such, very difficult to kill. So, presumably they'll be around for a long time yet. I don't see Angua becoming a baroness in the near future. And Carrot may indeed be the heir to the throne, but legally he is just a commoner as Ankh-Morpork doesn't have a Royal Family any more.
Having said that - we've seen how Vetinari will bestow knighthoods on people if it suits his purposes and, how knows? Maybe it will one day suit his purposes to use Carrot and Angua to unite A-M and Uberwald. It's an interesting thought.
I get the feeling that Angua has pretty much turned her back on Uberwald. Her parents are werewolves and as such, very difficult to kill. So, presumably they'll be around for a long time yet. I don't see Angua becoming a baroness in the near future. And Carrot may indeed be the heir to the throne, but legally he is just a commoner as Ankh-Morpork doesn't have a Royal Family any more.
Having said that - we've seen how Vetinari will bestow knighthoods on people if it suits his purposes and, how knows? Maybe it will one day suit his purposes to use Carrot and Angua to unite A-M and Uberwald. It's an interesting thought.
interesting how this theme has developed. I'd certainly agree that Angua is the key to resolving an otherwise static situation.
I didn't necessarily mean Angua would succeed any time soon, although I don't know how long werewolves live naturally. I'd inferred from various small clues that it was something similar to humans, but there's no real information offered, just that they can interbreed ( which vampires and humans don't appear to ), and the longevity of vampires is regularly referred to while werewolves' lifespan isn't mentioned.
Similarly werewolves don't appear to have the long names which are definitely related to vampires' long lifespans. The deterioration of the Baron into a sort of semi-senility by which he is increasingly unable to function as a human, seems to indicate a species which ages ( or at least changes over time ) at a noticeable rate.
Personally, I'd say Sally is a non-sequitur as far as Angua goes, a POV character who is really another take on the way different species who don't normally associate, interact within the watch - like Cheery in particular. She also demonstrates why Vimes doesn't want vampires in the Watch, not least because she is a politically-motivated "plant" by Vetinari and reporting to one or more third parties without Vimes' consent.
I didn't necessarily mean Angua would succeed any time soon, although I don't know how long werewolves live naturally. I'd inferred from various small clues that it was something similar to humans, but there's no real information offered, just that they can interbreed ( which vampires and humans don't appear to ), and the longevity of vampires is regularly referred to while werewolves' lifespan isn't mentioned.
Similarly werewolves don't appear to have the long names which are definitely related to vampires' long lifespans. The deterioration of the Baron into a sort of semi-senility by which he is increasingly unable to function as a human, seems to indicate a species which ages ( or at least changes over time ) at a noticeable rate.
Personally, I'd say Sally is a non-sequitur as far as Angua goes, a POV character who is really another take on the way different species who don't normally associate, interact within the watch - like Cheery in particular. She also demonstrates why Vimes doesn't want vampires in the Watch, not least because she is a politically-motivated "plant" by Vetinari and reporting to one or more third parties without Vimes' consent.
Not everything Sally did was an act. I believe her interaction with Angua was real especially in light of the fact her mission wouldn't have been made easier because of it and Angua remained suspicious even after they bonded.
As for Vimes feelings, I'd say he was somewhat right. but not entirely Sally was a copper before she met Vimes and only wanted to study under him she got involved in politics only because several people thought she would be very useful for their purposes. That's why Vimes wound up asking her to stay rather than drumming her out or accepting her resignation. It wasn't simply a political move because while Vimes does them he never does things strictly for that purpose.
I don't see Sally becoming the next Reg Shoe or Visit but time will tell if I'm right about her becoming a main character ala Angua and Detritus. Cheery's role has decreased since she ceased to be a leading figure in the "feminist" movement but she was a pretty significant character for a while.
As for Vimes feelings, I'd say he was somewhat right. but not entirely Sally was a copper before she met Vimes and only wanted to study under him she got involved in politics only because several people thought she would be very useful for their purposes. That's why Vimes wound up asking her to stay rather than drumming her out or accepting her resignation. It wasn't simply a political move because while Vimes does them he never does things strictly for that purpose.
I don't see Sally becoming the next Reg Shoe or Visit but time will tell if I'm right about her becoming a main character ala Angua and Detritus. Cheery's role has decreased since she ceased to be a leading figure in the "feminist" movement but she was a pretty significant character for a while.
I think your right about werewolves lifespans being the same as humans, although i think the Barons deterioration has more to do with him spending far too much time in wolf shape than his age. As for the undead/human interbreeding thing I go with the view that until pratchett says otherwise its a definite possibilty.
Angua returning to uberwald? no dont see it at least while her parents/clan are still alive and even then its unlikely, however i definatly think she could weild some political power in an unofficial capacity firstly becuase she's the sole heir of her clan (and given her reputation i doubt many people would want to challege her on that score) and secondly she has the backing of the vimes and vetinari which would make for a powerfull combination
Angua returning to uberwald? no dont see it at least while her parents/clan are still alive and even then its unlikely, however i definatly think she could weild some political power in an unofficial capacity firstly becuase she's the sole heir of her clan (and given her reputation i doubt many people would want to challege her on that score) and secondly she has the backing of the vimes and vetinari which would make for a powerfull combination
there are a number of clues which indicate that werewolves and humans can interbreed; the various comments about "wolf-men" as opposed to werewolves - this appears to be someone who spends most of their time as a wolf and become human at the full moon - and the throw-away line ( related to the "Nobby the aristocrat" sub-plot ) about "a future king REALLY named Rex" which can only be about possible offspring between Carrot and Angua. Ludmilla Cake seems to be a werewolf of some kind is ( presumably ) Mrs Cake's natural daughter, but Mrs Cake does not appear to be a werewolf, which makes you wonder who her father could have been.
SNUFF things.
Snuff possibilities: as in sniffing? (One of Angua's particular skills)
Re. Angua's relatives:would there be anyone left to inherit the title other than Angua? If I remember correctly, her surviving brother was disposed of at the end of 5th Elephant, papa is bonkers and mother appalling.
Carrot & Angua: surely this has to come to a resolution soon. Ive always been vaguely surprised that Carrot, with his old fashioned, slightly priggish morality, has not forced the pace on formalising their relationship, and it's just gone on too long now! Good grief, Angua first puts in an appearance in Men at Arms in 1993!!! Even though Discworld time is different to ours, in Roundworld years, this is 18 years ago- if they don't get a move on they'll be getting their Watch pensions before they finally wed.
Snuff possibilities: as in sniffing? (One of Angua's particular skills)
Re. Angua's relatives:would there be anyone left to inherit the title other than Angua? If I remember correctly, her surviving brother was disposed of at the end of 5th Elephant, papa is bonkers and mother appalling.
Carrot & Angua: surely this has to come to a resolution soon. Ive always been vaguely surprised that Carrot, with his old fashioned, slightly priggish morality, has not forced the pace on formalising their relationship, and it's just gone on too long now! Good grief, Angua first puts in an appearance in Men at Arms in 1993!!! Even though Discworld time is different to ours, in Roundworld years, this is 18 years ago- if they don't get a move on they'll be getting their Watch pensions before they finally wed.
There's a sketch of the cover ! http://www.vademecum-dm.com/?id=1300052319
Looks interesting... there seems to be some fowl business going on...
Looks interesting... there seems to be some fowl business going on...
My best interpretation of the sketch is that it is Vimes, apparently at the wheel of a side-wheel river steamer in heavy water. Maybe it's a Riverworld joke? Suggests a Genua location since these are specifically mentioned in that context elsewhere.
I suggest the creature on his shoulder is a gargoyle, but I have no suggestions regarding the chickens
regarding Carrot and Angua, surely the fact that the books are published more-or-less annually but books in a given story arc aren't published consecutively, is pretty much irrelevant? Discworld elapsed time is surely the sum of identifiable events in the various story arcs. Some are approximately contemporary and some are clearly out-of-sequence, especially Small Gods and to a fair extent, Pyramids.
Broadly speaking I'd say the books can be divided into several periods;
1) out-of-sequence stories like Small Gods, and arguably Pyramids with little or no identifiable connection to the main arcs. Early books like Colour of Magic, Sourcery and Light Fantastic belong here to varying extents, because they don't form a coherent part of the canon as it subsequently develops.
2) flashback stories like the early sections of Nightwatch, or the sections relating to Granny Weather wax and Mustrum Ridcully's younger days
3) the main story arc which involves the main characters
I'd say the main story arc spans a period of twelve to fifteen years. This would make Carrot somewhere in his late teens when he arrives in Ank-Morpork, with Angua about the same or slightly older. Vimes would be somewhere in his thirties when he first appears in Guards! Guards! and late 40s in the later books. Fred Colon would be early 40s when he first appears in Nightwatch, and approaching sixty in later books.
The senior witches would be somewhere between their late forties to early sixties; it's clear that some witches live to a great age but Granny and Nanny are too active for this, and anyway in a society like Lancre, Nanny might well be a grandmother in her late thirties. Her ( aparently ) eldest son ( the blacksmith ) would then be somewhere between early twenties and mid-to-late thirties. So is Magrat, with Verence again somewhat older.
To some extent the DW books display the same dislocations as the Aubrey/Maturin novels. Aubrey is a young lieutenant when he first appears, and his career runs in approximately real time ( as identifiable from real-history events ) for the next five or six books. The last two books run in real time, and his age is approximately correct relative to the earlier ones, as are his family.
However the middle part of the sequence comprise a series of stories broadly related to real-world events. They are internally consistent, but add up to a considerably longer period than can be accomodated between the fixed opening and closing sequences.
There are also various non-sequiturs which are essentially driven by plot requirements. Midshipman Read apparently loses an arm at the shoulder, but subsequently re-appears with a hook - because the plot requires a junior officer well-known to Aubrey for a specific role. Aubrey has a long-serving officer with a wooden leg on one occasion - appointing hin captain of a prize as a means of pensioning him off honourably - whereas another fellow officer is described as having moved to the role of captain of an East Indiaman, due to a wooden leg, because the plot requires an officer known to Aubrey, witha naval background but retired from the service with no reflection upon his competence.
Carrot and Angua are in this category. They are favourites with the readers and can't be dropped, but they can't simply decline with age as Colon does. Vimes visibly ages and grows into his responsibilities. The Patrician can remain ageless, but he does appear to age since he walks with a cane in later appearances. Detritus develops greatly over time.
Logically, Carrot and Angua should have become minor background characters but the Watch stories require someone in their roles. Cheery isn't it, and nor is Detritus.
I suspect that Carrot and Angua's relationship is a piece of misdirection, covering the fact the TP hasn't resolved it himself.
I suggest the creature on his shoulder is a gargoyle, but I have no suggestions regarding the chickens
regarding Carrot and Angua, surely the fact that the books are published more-or-less annually but books in a given story arc aren't published consecutively, is pretty much irrelevant? Discworld elapsed time is surely the sum of identifiable events in the various story arcs. Some are approximately contemporary and some are clearly out-of-sequence, especially Small Gods and to a fair extent, Pyramids.
Broadly speaking I'd say the books can be divided into several periods;
1) out-of-sequence stories like Small Gods, and arguably Pyramids with little or no identifiable connection to the main arcs. Early books like Colour of Magic, Sourcery and Light Fantastic belong here to varying extents, because they don't form a coherent part of the canon as it subsequently develops.
2) flashback stories like the early sections of Nightwatch, or the sections relating to Granny Weather wax and Mustrum Ridcully's younger days
3) the main story arc which involves the main characters
I'd say the main story arc spans a period of twelve to fifteen years. This would make Carrot somewhere in his late teens when he arrives in Ank-Morpork, with Angua about the same or slightly older. Vimes would be somewhere in his thirties when he first appears in Guards! Guards! and late 40s in the later books. Fred Colon would be early 40s when he first appears in Nightwatch, and approaching sixty in later books.
The senior witches would be somewhere between their late forties to early sixties; it's clear that some witches live to a great age but Granny and Nanny are too active for this, and anyway in a society like Lancre, Nanny might well be a grandmother in her late thirties. Her ( aparently ) eldest son ( the blacksmith ) would then be somewhere between early twenties and mid-to-late thirties. So is Magrat, with Verence again somewhat older.
To some extent the DW books display the same dislocations as the Aubrey/Maturin novels. Aubrey is a young lieutenant when he first appears, and his career runs in approximately real time ( as identifiable from real-history events ) for the next five or six books. The last two books run in real time, and his age is approximately correct relative to the earlier ones, as are his family.
However the middle part of the sequence comprise a series of stories broadly related to real-world events. They are internally consistent, but add up to a considerably longer period than can be accomodated between the fixed opening and closing sequences.
There are also various non-sequiturs which are essentially driven by plot requirements. Midshipman Read apparently loses an arm at the shoulder, but subsequently re-appears with a hook - because the plot requires a junior officer well-known to Aubrey for a specific role. Aubrey has a long-serving officer with a wooden leg on one occasion - appointing hin captain of a prize as a means of pensioning him off honourably - whereas another fellow officer is described as having moved to the role of captain of an East Indiaman, due to a wooden leg, because the plot requires an officer known to Aubrey, witha naval background but retired from the service with no reflection upon his competence.
Carrot and Angua are in this category. They are favourites with the readers and can't be dropped, but they can't simply decline with age as Colon does. Vimes visibly ages and grows into his responsibilities. The Patrician can remain ageless, but he does appear to age since he walks with a cane in later appearances. Detritus develops greatly over time.
Logically, Carrot and Angua should have become minor background characters but the Watch stories require someone in their roles. Cheery isn't it, and nor is Detritus.
I suspect that Carrot and Angua's relationship is a piece of misdirection, covering the fact the TP hasn't resolved it himself.
Carrot & Angua married?
Oh, no. Never happen. For one thing, the timeline on Discworld is very different from ours. I haven't actually made any sort of study or anything, but my impression is that it has only been about 5 years A-M since Carrot and Angua met. I am probably off one way or another by a few years, but I seriously doubt it's been 18 years!
Also, I am certain that Carrot is playing his own game here. Don't get me wrong: I am sure he has very sincere and deep feelings for Angua; perhaps even love. But he also has other considerations.
First, of course, is his sense of duty to the Watch. Does he feel that Watch members should perhaps not be married, to avoid feelings of favoritism amongst the other members of the watch? A possibility...
Also, leave us not forget that Carrot is (possibly!) the Rightful Heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork! Should royalty marry a commoner? A werewolf? Perhaps these thoughts weigh heavily on Captain Carrot's mind.
And, of course, there is our viewpoint. Admit it: wouldn't you miss the tension and the sense of anticipation you feel when you watch the interplay between them? I know I would.
Oh, no. Never happen. For one thing, the timeline on Discworld is very different from ours. I haven't actually made any sort of study or anything, but my impression is that it has only been about 5 years A-M since Carrot and Angua met. I am probably off one way or another by a few years, but I seriously doubt it's been 18 years!
Also, I am certain that Carrot is playing his own game here. Don't get me wrong: I am sure he has very sincere and deep feelings for Angua; perhaps even love. But he also has other considerations.
First, of course, is his sense of duty to the Watch. Does he feel that Watch members should perhaps not be married, to avoid feelings of favoritism amongst the other members of the watch? A possibility...
Also, leave us not forget that Carrot is (possibly!) the Rightful Heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork! Should royalty marry a commoner? A werewolf? Perhaps these thoughts weigh heavily on Captain Carrot's mind.
And, of course, there is our viewpoint. Admit it: wouldn't you miss the tension and the sense of anticipation you feel when you watch the interplay between them? I know I would.
The Throne of Ankh-Morpork doesn't exist any more. Carrot might as well be the heir to the throne of Russia or France, it doesn't mean he'll ever become the monarch.
The plot line has moved on - without giving too much away, there is a passing reference in I Shall Wear Midnight to "Captain Angua" - perhaps she is in charge of her own Watch House.
As to that being Goosberry - well I've imagined him much smaller as in pocket-sized. He does live inside a pocket-sized device after all.
The plot line has moved on - without giving too much away, there is a passing reference in I Shall Wear Midnight to "Captain Angua" - perhaps she is in charge of her own Watch House.
As to that being Goosberry - well I've imagined him much smaller as in pocket-sized. He does live inside a pocket-sized device after all.
