Snuff
- Thread starter poohcarrot
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Tonyblack said:
The plot line has moved on - without giving too much away, there is a passing reference in I Shall Wear Midnight to "Captain Angua" - perhaps she is in charge of her own Watch House.
As to that being Goosberry - well I've imagined him much smaller as in pocket-sized. He does live inside a pocket-sized device after all.
As to that being Goosberry - well I've imagined him much smaller as in pocket-sized. He does live inside a pocket-sized device after all.
Maybe its am upgrade of the Gooseberry - or it's the iPad to the Gooseberry's iPhone? or it could just be a baby dragon, little Sam's pet.
the throne of Ankh-Morpork DOES physically exist. Vetinari sits next to it in Guards! Guards! much in the fashion of Tolkien's Steward of Gondor. It may be too rotten to sit on, but it is generally understood to physically exist and perhaps more importantly, to represent the legitimacy of the State.
Likewise there is an attempt at one point, to present Nobby Nobbs as a front for an attempt to usurp power from Vetinari on the basis of his supposed nobility.
Vetinari may present himself as having no royal or aristocratic connections, but he appoints Vimes a Duke because he finds it useful to do so, and everyone accepts this as a fact.
Nobility is still important in Ankh-Morpork; as further evidence, Lord Rust's military ventures in Jingo. This is also a round-world trait; look at King Juan Carlos of Spain's role in supressing an attempted military coup, or the fact that the German Ambassador to the Court of St James still calls himself a "Baron".
Carrot's main role as the Heir Apparent may be of little practical value in the sense that he is unlikely to be King, but while he is generally known to exist and accepted as the heir apparent, it does prevent anyone else from claiming the role.
I wouldn't be too dogmatic about the A-M timeline. I'd always had the impression that Carrot arrived in A-M as a naive young man, possibly in his late teens. The more mature Carrot who develops a relationship with Angua has moved on quite some way from this. I'd accept that the stories cover a period of less than ten years, but they are inconsistent in detail and after all, carrot is well-established in A-M when Angua arrives. I'd also rather had the impression that she was somewhat older, or at least more adult, in the early stages of their relationship.
Vimes, after all, has time to get a grip on his alcoholism, expand the watch, preside over the training of officers who move to various other cities, meet Sybil, marry and have a son who is old enough to be read stories and be aware of expecting this. On that basis I'd say the Vimes story arc covers a period of five to ten years, and nearer ten. The various background detail of Thud! and Nightwatch make it fairly clear that he is at that point, in his early 40s ( since he is about 18 in the flashback section of Nightwatch, stated as taking place twenty-five years before ) and has been married not less than three years.
Nightwatch makes it fairly clear that Colon is an experienced and established Watchman at the time Vimes joined, hence he is probably in his mid-fifties at the time of Thud! with Nobby being somewhat younger - there is at least ten years between the two men, probably more, per Nightwatch.
On that basis, Carrot and Angua's relationship probably spans a period of not less than five years, since he arrives before she does.
One thing I'm unclear about, is Colon's and Nobbs' military experience. Colon appears to have been in the army as a young man. He may have become a Watch sergeant having been a sergeant in the army. However the young Nobbs of Nightwatch is clearly too young to have served, especially as he apppears to have been known to Colon during this time, which leads to the conclusion that Nobby and Fred served together at some time between the two periods of Nightwatch
anyone?
Likewise there is an attempt at one point, to present Nobby Nobbs as a front for an attempt to usurp power from Vetinari on the basis of his supposed nobility.
Vetinari may present himself as having no royal or aristocratic connections, but he appoints Vimes a Duke because he finds it useful to do so, and everyone accepts this as a fact.
Nobility is still important in Ankh-Morpork; as further evidence, Lord Rust's military ventures in Jingo. This is also a round-world trait; look at King Juan Carlos of Spain's role in supressing an attempted military coup, or the fact that the German Ambassador to the Court of St James still calls himself a "Baron".
Carrot's main role as the Heir Apparent may be of little practical value in the sense that he is unlikely to be King, but while he is generally known to exist and accepted as the heir apparent, it does prevent anyone else from claiming the role.
I wouldn't be too dogmatic about the A-M timeline. I'd always had the impression that Carrot arrived in A-M as a naive young man, possibly in his late teens. The more mature Carrot who develops a relationship with Angua has moved on quite some way from this. I'd accept that the stories cover a period of less than ten years, but they are inconsistent in detail and after all, carrot is well-established in A-M when Angua arrives. I'd also rather had the impression that she was somewhat older, or at least more adult, in the early stages of their relationship.
Vimes, after all, has time to get a grip on his alcoholism, expand the watch, preside over the training of officers who move to various other cities, meet Sybil, marry and have a son who is old enough to be read stories and be aware of expecting this. On that basis I'd say the Vimes story arc covers a period of five to ten years, and nearer ten. The various background detail of Thud! and Nightwatch make it fairly clear that he is at that point, in his early 40s ( since he is about 18 in the flashback section of Nightwatch, stated as taking place twenty-five years before ) and has been married not less than three years.
Nightwatch makes it fairly clear that Colon is an experienced and established Watchman at the time Vimes joined, hence he is probably in his mid-fifties at the time of Thud! with Nobby being somewhat younger - there is at least ten years between the two men, probably more, per Nightwatch.
On that basis, Carrot and Angua's relationship probably spans a period of not less than five years, since he arrives before she does.
One thing I'm unclear about, is Colon's and Nobbs' military experience. Colon appears to have been in the army as a young man. He may have become a Watch sergeant having been a sergeant in the army. However the young Nobbs of Nightwatch is clearly too young to have served, especially as he apppears to have been known to Colon during this time, which leads to the conclusion that Nobby and Fred served together at some time between the two periods of Nightwatch
anyone?
When I said the "throne of Ankh-Morpork" I wasn't talking about the chair.
Face it, Terry is never going to get rid of Vetinari and replace him with Carrot. If he does I'll stop reading his books.
I don't see a problem with Nobby and Colon having been in the regiments. They may have been in there for a relatively short time, possibly under some sort of conscription. There's plenty of time in the time-line for that to have taken place.
Face it, Terry is never going to get rid of Vetinari and replace him with Carrot. If he does I'll stop reading his books.
I don't see a problem with Nobby and Colon having been in the regiments. They may have been in there for a relatively short time, possibly under some sort of conscription. There's plenty of time in the time-line for that to have taken place.
no, you're missing my point. The "throne of Ankh-Morpork", if it means anything, means the general acceptance of the legitimacy of the ruler by custom and tradition.
Vetinari makes use of this idea as and when it suits his purposes; such as appointing Vimes to the rank of Duke, so that he may be seen to hold an office dating back to time out of mind and thus, deal with aristocrats from places like Uberwald within their protocols.
How could he otherwise be sent to Bonk as a diplomatic emissary? Or deal with the Klatchian emissaries, all minor royalty, in Jingo?
it's clear that the idea of the old kings still holds some influence, or there would be no aristocracy and no attempt to present Nobby Nobbs as a pretender. There would be no heraldry. There would be no basis for "the raising of the regiments" in Jingo.
However, Carrot is an important part of this. By existing, being generally recognised as such, and effectively sanctioning the Patrician by serving his regime, he is a defence against pretenders from other sources; if he is the REAL king, any other claimant is by definition a fake, or subordinate to him, and hence to Vetinari.
Vetinari makes use of this idea as and when it suits his purposes; such as appointing Vimes to the rank of Duke, so that he may be seen to hold an office dating back to time out of mind and thus, deal with aristocrats from places like Uberwald within their protocols.
How could he otherwise be sent to Bonk as a diplomatic emissary? Or deal with the Klatchian emissaries, all minor royalty, in Jingo?
it's clear that the idea of the old kings still holds some influence, or there would be no aristocracy and no attempt to present Nobby Nobbs as a pretender. There would be no heraldry. There would be no basis for "the raising of the regiments" in Jingo.
However, Carrot is an important part of this. By existing, being generally recognised as such, and effectively sanctioning the Patrician by serving his regime, he is a defence against pretenders from other sources; if he is the REAL king, any other claimant is by definition a fake, or subordinate to him, and hence to Vetinari.
the chair is relevant, because of the way Vetinari sits at the foot of the dais in Guards! Guards! - as though he were the Steward of Gondor.
He then draws an analogy about the fact that the chair LOOKS impressive but is, in fact quite useless; but as long as no-one actually TRIES to sit on it, it continues to serve the function of representing the continuity or legitimacy of the actual government.
Angua, Vetinari and Vimes all comment, at one time or another, that Carrot is probably the heir to the throne. There's a scene in Men At Arms where Nobby is discussing the desirability or otherwise of having a king, and it's fairly obvious that Colon and Detritus are at least aware of the story. There's a subsequent scene where Carrot takes control of a mob simply by his presence, and various people comment on the fact - a trick he repeats in Klatch during the invasion ( Jingo ), which doesn't go unremarked by the Prince.
I'm fairly sure there is some reference to it in Guards! Guards!, by way of his sword.
Regarding the Heads of the Guilds, Vetinari runs the city by making sure that he is the least worst alternative. None of them want one of the OTHER Guilds pulling a stunt of that sort; if Carrot is the heir and doesn't want the job, and effectively sanctions Vetinari, that's another problem no-one needs worry about.
He then draws an analogy about the fact that the chair LOOKS impressive but is, in fact quite useless; but as long as no-one actually TRIES to sit on it, it continues to serve the function of representing the continuity or legitimacy of the actual government.
Angua, Vetinari and Vimes all comment, at one time or another, that Carrot is probably the heir to the throne. There's a scene in Men At Arms where Nobby is discussing the desirability or otherwise of having a king, and it's fairly obvious that Colon and Detritus are at least aware of the story. There's a subsequent scene where Carrot takes control of a mob simply by his presence, and various people comment on the fact - a trick he repeats in Klatch during the invasion ( Jingo ), which doesn't go unremarked by the Prince.
I'm fairly sure there is some reference to it in Guards! Guards!, by way of his sword.
Regarding the Heads of the Guilds, Vetinari runs the city by making sure that he is the least worst alternative. None of them want one of the OTHER Guilds pulling a stunt of that sort; if Carrot is the heir and doesn't want the job, and effectively sanctions Vetinari, that's another problem no-one needs worry about.
Carrot is the heir to what though? A chair with wood worm? Carrot serves Vetinari because it's his duty, not because he is giving his blessing. I really don't think that Carrot's approval or otherwise would have any bearing on Vetinari's rule - the guild leaders don't know of his claim (which is in any case very flimsy - a sword and a scar), and the members of the nobility that heard of it immediately dismissed it. And a handful of watchmen (at the most) being aware that there might be some claim is hardly common knowledge. So I stand by what I said
Carrot is the heir to the principle of legitimate succession in a world where things like a scar and a sword are immensely important, where things happen because they are believed or because that's how the story goes.
I suspect that he has a particular destiny, one which involves a service of some sort to the city. I suspect that this will also be the trigger or catalyst for the bitter-sweet parting which is the only ending I can foresee for his relationship with Angua.
of course, I could simply be wrong...
I suspect that he has a particular destiny, one which involves a service of some sort to the city. I suspect that this will also be the trigger or catalyst for the bitter-sweet parting which is the only ending I can foresee for his relationship with Angua.
of course, I could simply be wrong...
Like some others, I would like to see Carrot and Angua get married. I can't believe he hasn't asked her yet, which must mean she said no. But she tried to leave once before and that didn't work out, so I remain hopeful.
Maybe she just doesn't want a big wedding with all her relatives. Elope perhaps?
Maybe she just doesn't want a big wedding with all her relatives. Elope perhaps?
Hello everyone!
Okay, my theory: they're already married. They had a quiet little ceremony at Small Gods just before the events of I Shall Wear Midnight and just haven't told that many people. Since Angua got promoted to Captain they don't see much of each other, so they decided to move in together (as mentioned in I Shall Wear Midnight) and then get married. It'll be revealed in Snuff, but I honestly can't imagine either Carrot or Angua having a big ceremony or anything, they'll probably even wear their uniforms! A little wedding before going back on duty! I can imagine Angua saying something along the lines of 'Carrot's a Captain in the Watch, is he wearing a dress? No? Then I don't have to either.'
I like the look of the cover... I have to wait till OCTOBER? Suckage!
Okay, my theory: they're already married. They had a quiet little ceremony at Small Gods just before the events of I Shall Wear Midnight and just haven't told that many people. Since Angua got promoted to Captain they don't see much of each other, so they decided to move in together (as mentioned in I Shall Wear Midnight) and then get married. It'll be revealed in Snuff, but I honestly can't imagine either Carrot or Angua having a big ceremony or anything, they'll probably even wear their uniforms! A little wedding before going back on duty! I can imagine Angua saying something along the lines of 'Carrot's a Captain in the Watch, is he wearing a dress? No? Then I don't have to either.'
I like the look of the cover... I have to wait till OCTOBER? Suckage!
