Standing the Test of Time
- Thread starter inca
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It's getting to the point where this forum is more like a blog. Discussion that disagrees with Q is not welcome, obviously. Well, you're wrong. Disagreement is an essential part of any discussion, which is expected on a public forum.
There's the difference then. As a scientist I'm well within my comfort zone when I'm being challenged, and I read articles because I enjoy it, not because it's a requirement.
There's the difference then. As a scientist I'm well within my comfort zone when I'm being challenged, and I read articles because I enjoy it, not because it's a requirement.
Willem said:
Quatermass said:
That is both a silly suggestion, Dotsie, and almost completely unconnected. If someone told me about a relevant journal article to my research, of course I would read it. To not do so would be to invite disaster. In fact, I'm fairly good at reviewing the literature. I just wish that I had a job that would allow me to demonstrate that. 
On the one hand you have a friend or relative who probably knows what you like and dislike recommending something you might like too.
On the other you have a colleague who knows your area of expertise recommending something to expand your knowledge in that area.
Both take their prior knowledge of you and your interest and make suggestions to help you out. One on the personal field, helping you relax and enjoy things. One on the professional field, helping you do your job better.
Willem said:
It seems like you think that nobody can possibly know you well enough to know what you like - and to make that point you purposely reject their recommendations. You are indeed the judge of liking something. But people that know you CAN have a good idea if you'll like something too.
Taking more recommendations from people will undoubtedly lead to your reading more crap than before. It will also lead you to books, shows and movies that you could have found yourself, but weeks/months/years before you would have. And it might lead you to gems you'd never have discovered yourself!
Plus, it's more sociable These recommendations are made to help you enjoy yourself, not as a 'Ha-ha, I've found something cool before you found it yourself'. Get off that high horse, mingle with the commoners. It makes life a lot easier for both yourself and the plebs around you
Taking more recommendations from people will undoubtedly lead to your reading more crap than before. It will also lead you to books, shows and movies that you could have found yourself, but weeks/months/years before you would have. And it might lead you to gems you'd never have discovered yourself!
Plus, it's more sociable
These recommendations are made to help you enjoy yourself, not as a 'Ha-ha, I've found something cool before you found it yourself'. Get off that high horse, mingle with the commoners. It makes life a lot easier for both yourself and the plebs around you
A friend of the family is also one with a good track record. She was particularly responsible for getting me onto the Vorkosigan Saga, and I have asked her opinion about a number of science fiction books that I intended to read. But she and I disagree about quite a few science fiction series, quite amicably.
But for the most part, I look for new stuff to read myself. I have my own way of getting into new things. And it works. And remember Lord Vetinari's motto: Si non confectus, non reficiat.
As for being sociable, please don't use that tack. It doesn't work, I don't like socialising. And as for that whole thing of mistaking people's suggestions for boasting, I do not. I just do not like being told what I might like to read.
Now, can we please drop the issue? S'il vous plait?
Excuse me? I have justified what I do and why I do it. And I am trying to prevent further conflict, as I can see it starting to escalate.
I do read papers for enjoyment too, albeit in my favourite subjects. In fact, I have four boxes full, as well as a number of PDFs on my computer.
Dotsie, I respect what you are trying to do, in making me aware of what is expected of me in professional academia. But I do not appreciate you judging my reading habits in my personal life and extrapolating them to my non-existent professional life, in which I know I will be reading papers because it is necessary.
I do read papers for enjoyment too, albeit in my favourite subjects. In fact, I have four boxes full, as well as a number of PDFs on my computer.
Dotsie, I respect what you are trying to do, in making me aware of what is expected of me in professional academia. But I do not appreciate you judging my reading habits in my personal life and extrapolating them to my non-existent professional life, in which I know I will be reading papers because it is necessary.
shegallivants said:
spideyGirl said:
Don't shoot me but tv can help wth this too. For example the TP books at the moment are too grown up for my son to read, but he loved the tv series of Hogfather, Colour of Magic etc... When I look up at my TP book collection it makes me smile to know that in the future he will have so much to discover and when he reads the books those tv series are based on! Whereas since the late 80's I have had to patiently wait for each new story. Still feels like Christmas when a new one comes out 
May get him started on some of the TP books for children now, even if it's just me reading to him first.
May get him started on some of the TP books for children now, even if it's just me reading to him first.
(The force is with you etc )
My lad started reading Truckers today!
He kept stopping every couple of sentences after laughing and just had to read it out to me, it may take a while
I think that TP has a good chance of standing the test of time. Some books especially, like Small Gods, Jingo, perhaps Going Postal, The 5th Elephant, Thud...
Others do stand a chance as well, IMO. Take Wyrd Sisters. A parody of a work as well known as Shakespeare will probably find sooner or later its way into some department of English literature at Univeristies across the world.
Since HP was mentioned earlier: At the university where I studied there already were courses about HP. At that time I was appalled (I do like HP, but I just started reading Rowling this year) - partly because I thought (and still think) that Pratchett would be worthier of a university course than Rowling (or Nick Hornby for that matter).
One of my Latin professors also recently held a lecture about similarities between ancient epics (Odyssee, Aeneid) and HP (and compared Aeneas and Harry).
So I think chances are that sooner or later some of the staff at universities, colleges and schools will discover Pratchett as well and do their share in making his work last.
As for the argument that some of the things TP is referring to will be outdated/ not understood anymore: This is a minor problem. Homer wasn't fully understood in the times the first written editions of his works appeared. And that was not only "insider jokes", but basic things as vocabulary. Even now, after more than 2500 years of reading Homer, not all the meanings of the words he used are clear.
I guess it will be a very interesting task for future Pratchett researchers to find out what some of the references might allude to - there will probably be books about whether "Millenium hand and shrimp" is just some gibberish or has a deeper meaning.
Sometimes I wish I could travel in time...
On a sidenote: In the matter of recommendations I'm quite like Quatermass - thought I'd support him a bit.
Others do stand a chance as well, IMO. Take Wyrd Sisters. A parody of a work as well known as Shakespeare will probably find sooner or later its way into some department of English literature at Univeristies across the world.
Since HP was mentioned earlier: At the university where I studied there already were courses about HP. At that time I was appalled (I do like HP, but I just started reading Rowling this year) - partly because I thought (and still think) that Pratchett would be worthier of a university course than Rowling (or Nick Hornby for that matter).
One of my Latin professors also recently held a lecture about similarities between ancient epics (Odyssee, Aeneid) and HP (and compared Aeneas and Harry).
So I think chances are that sooner or later some of the staff at universities, colleges and schools will discover Pratchett as well and do their share in making his work last.
As for the argument that some of the things TP is referring to will be outdated/ not understood anymore: This is a minor problem. Homer wasn't fully understood in the times the first written editions of his works appeared. And that was not only "insider jokes", but basic things as vocabulary. Even now, after more than 2500 years of reading Homer, not all the meanings of the words he used are clear.
I guess it will be a very interesting task for future Pratchett researchers to find out what some of the references might allude to - there will probably be books about whether "Millenium hand and shrimp" is just some gibberish or has a deeper meaning.
Sometimes I wish I could travel in time...
On a sidenote: In the matter of recommendations I'm quite like Quatermass - thought I'd support him a bit.
Shegs.... handing DOWN DW books?
Our DW books have lept up and down the generations. I started reading them after my teen daughter recommended them to me... she is now 23 and we buy the new editions to each other.... the teen has been subliminly saturated and although she hasn't got into them CAN join in aDW conversation simply because of overhearing conversations.
NOW she (the teen) is interested in reading them.... and we are handing them on to her.... (down? up?) .... if we can get them off the wee one.... she doesn't understand them at all; she just loves the words on the page.
Its certainly become a family affair.
Our DW books have lept up and down the generations. I started reading them after my teen daughter recommended them to me... she is now 23 and we buy the new editions to each other.... the teen has been subliminly saturated and although she hasn't got into them CAN join in aDW conversation simply because of overhearing conversations.
NOW she (the teen) is interested in reading them.... and we are handing them on to her.... (down? up?) .... if we can get them off the wee one.... she doesn't understand them at all; she just loves the words on the page.
Its certainly become a family affair.
On the other hand, isn't that what was said about Tolkien either? And while it still has to go some hundred years to rise to Shakespearian level, it's a classic without a doubt.
HP is accessible, comprehensible. In that way it has something to offer, I feel. (And I could easily see it being a children's classic like for example "The Neverending Story" by Michael Ende.)
HP is accessible, comprehensible. In that way it has something to offer, I feel. (And I could easily see it being a children's classic like for example "The Neverending Story" by Michael Ende.)
I'll probably annoy a few people here by saying this, but I don't think Lord of the Rings has a lot of depth either. Sure it's an epic tale and mostly very well written, but parts of it are as boring as hell and almost totally pointless to the plot. I found it a lot harder to relate the characters with humanity than I do with DW books.
I'll go back to Swift here and say that his characters in Gulliver are far more recognisable as 'us' than Tolkien's. Tolkien has become dated in a relatively short time.
Having said that - I've only read LoTR once and I'm not in any great hurry to read it again, so maybe it's unfair of me to make the comparison.
I'll go back to Swift here and say that his characters in Gulliver are far more recognisable as 'us' than Tolkien's. Tolkien has become dated in a relatively short time.
Having said that - I've only read LoTR once and I'm not in any great hurry to read it again, so maybe it's unfair of me to make the comparison.
I totally agree with you - it is the exact reason Tolkien was on my mind.
(I do reread Tolkien occasionally though.) But whatever its flaws, it is still a classic. The impact of the book can't be denied and it is not fading into oblivion soon.
I also think books, stories, (but also movies and music) can deliver on many levels. Pratchetts books are great on parody and fun, with lots of teasers for mind and intellect. They have great insight in society. But they appeal less to certain emotions: I've never cried because two people loved each other so much, or sat and read with my heart rate up from tension. LotR on the other hand, I would qualify it more like a scenic walk, enjoying the views rather than the story. (And not even because they are so very well described but because they resonate somehow.)
There are all sorts of needs my mind has, some intellectual, some emotional, some other, and I feed them with different books and stories and music. And I think on all of them, there can be some classics that will stand the test of time.
(I do reread Tolkien occasionally though.) But whatever its flaws, it is still a classic. The impact of the book can't be denied and it is not fading into oblivion soon.
I also think books, stories, (but also movies and music) can deliver on many levels. Pratchetts books are great on parody and fun, with lots of teasers for mind and intellect. They have great insight in society. But they appeal less to certain emotions: I've never cried because two people loved each other so much, or sat and read with my heart rate up from tension. LotR on the other hand, I would qualify it more like a scenic walk, enjoying the views rather than the story. (And not even because they are so very well described but because they resonate somehow.)
There are all sorts of needs my mind has, some intellectual, some emotional, some other, and I feed them with different books and stories and music. And I think on all of them, there can be some classics that will stand the test of time.
Wow, still haven't seen the lightning bolt from JANus yet.
So maybe it's safe to say I totally agree. It's a great tale, but the characters have as much depth as flypaper, the dialogue is as stilted and wooden as the walking trees, and hundreds of pages consist of little more than geographical walking tours. It's like reading the lyrics of a 300-hour Yes album.
So maybe it's safe to say I totally agree. It's a great tale, but the characters have as much depth as flypaper, the dialogue is as stilted and wooden as the walking trees, and hundreds of pages consist of little more than geographical walking tours. It's like reading the lyrics of a 300-hour Yes album.
Tonyblack said:
I'll probably annoy a few people here by saying this, but I don't think Lord of the Rings has a lot of depth either. Sure it's an epic tale and mostly very well written, but parts of it are as boring as hell and almost totally pointless to the plot. I found it a lot harder to relate the characters with humanity than I do with DW books.
I'll go back to Swift here and say that his characters in Gulliver are far more recognisable as 'us' than Tolkien's. Tolkien has become dated in a relatively short time.
Having said that - I've only read LoTR once and I'm not in any great hurry to read it again, so maybe it's unfair of me to make the comparison.
I'll go back to Swift here and say that his characters in Gulliver are far more recognisable as 'us' than Tolkien's. Tolkien has become dated in a relatively short time.
Having said that - I've only read LoTR once and I'm not in any great hurry to read it again, so maybe it's unfair of me to make the comparison.
Especially the first book is a bit boring
