The Caroc Cards - The Temple of the Lady @ DWCon 2012
- Thread starter Jan Van Quirm
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BTW In German Sodium is called Natrium, so you can see where the Na comes in. There's quite a few elements that don't have obvious abbreviations - Au for gold; Ag for silver; Pb for lead; Sn for tin; Hg for mercury, all from the Latin, K for Potassium, but I'm straying off the point.
I'll add my comments to your originals:
Do you want a single font, or different designs for each card? Does NP mean No Problem? They're my initials, so I was initially a bit confused. 
Jan Van Quirm said:
NP meer - plenty of time for this 
I'll add my comments to your originals:
Jan Van Quirm said:
In the real Caroc there are 30 cards altogether but Terry's only got around to actually naming a few of them and most can equate (roughly in some cases) to the 22 Roundworld cards so this is what we've come up with - the Discworld name is shown in brackets where appropriate
Later suggestions/options in red until meerkat sanctions 8)
1 ~ The Magician
Mankind surrounded by nature. Endowed with enough power to manage your affairs.
Probably one of the UU Wizards but one who fits the description (Ponder? Ridcully?)
Have you considered Albert? After all, he was supposed to have been the most powerful wizard of all and founder of UU to boot. Does this have to be a male character, coz if not, then I'd also consider Granny Weatherwax.
2 ~ The High Priestess
Sanctuary, law, woman, Mother.
Mrs. Cosmopolite in her position as Muse/Sibyl to Lu-Tze and the History Monks. Could also work Anoia into this too as she's sort of a domestic goddess
Nanny Ogg has many of these qualities.
I agree, although I would also consider Sibyl to have at least the same three as Nanny.
3 ~ The Empress
Evolutionary power of fertilised nature.
Lady Margolotta (on the basis of international political clout)Magrat, since she's pretty darned earth mother fertile. And she's queen.
4 ~ The Emperor (The Ruler)
The Energy in man to give his creations a short reality.
Because of that qualification - Terry The Man (Vetinari is still in here just wait a bit :twisted: )
Wm. De Worde?
I'd vote for Vetinari.
5 ~ The High Priest
Spiritual Power which conveys principles.
Hughnon Ridcully (HP of Blind Io)? OR Brutha?
Lu-Tze or the Abbot.
6 ~ The Lovers
Physical love. Urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it.
Carrot and Angua? LONAs?
Tricky. I don't think Carrot & Angua quite fit - Carrot just isn't romantic. I can only think of minor characters for this: Cohen & Bethany (was that her name? In CoM); Wen & Time; Susan & Jeremy/Lobsang. Overall LONAs fit the description best.
7 ~ The Chariot
Material Power. Dominion over passions. Actions of a human being.
The Luggage on the basis (and basics) of carrying material trappings and in particular laundry action... 8)
I like the luggage for this. If not, then maybe Binky.
8 ~ Justice
Happy or painful consequences.
Lord Vetinari - just right!
Sam Vimes. He is justice personified. Even Vetinari must bow to him when it concerns The Law. They are both servants of the Law and Sam certainly upholds it without fear or favour. However as Patrician Vetinari can make or repeal laws (even if he's also subject to them like when he's removed from office in Jingo). Sam can't do that, so I say he's still 2nd choice.
I'd go for Vimes here.
9 ~ The Hermit
Search of Truth. Search for patience. Prudence.
Lu-tze
10 ~ The Wheel of Fortune
Actions in the present affected by the past.
Guild of Gamblers - maybe tie in Fate & the Lady? Moist?
This is Moist all over. He's all about actions in the present being affected by his past. (included on the basis that I loathe Moist so can't be a judge )
I'd go for the Lady, or how about CMOT. Admittedly, it's usually bad fortune in his case, but his actions are affected by the past.
11 ~ Strength (The Importance of Washing the Hands)
Fruits of labour. Ability to tell truth from lies.
Cohen or Hrun cleaning up... from a Health & Efficiency slant - strength through hygieneCarrot is he wasn't being used elsewhere. Or Detritus, since he strongly committed to cleaning the city of troll drugs. They don't have to be major characters and anyway Cohen isn't as he's in 3 books. We did think of having a Troll but thought the discernment factor was more pertinent (like oiled muscles flexing admittedly)
How about the Nac MacFeegle, or the librarian?
12 ~ The Hanged Man
Halt or Suspension. Abandonment/Unshared love.
The gallows dummy in AM (FoC)? I'd say Nutt? Giving a card to a inanimate object? Silly! OVERRULED - NP with objects if the significance fits. :twisted:
I'd have thought this fits Moist rather well, both literally and metaphorically.
13 ~ Death
New Start/New beginnings, even new life. Cut with the past.
Who d'you think?
(see what I did there? It's a [drum] roll)
14 ~ Temperance
Adapting to new experience. Reconciliation in business.
Black Ribbon and bats Maladicta? CMOT (entrepreneurial skills - trend-jumping)?
Twoflower? Maybe not. How about the librarian, he definitely adapted to new experiences.
15 ~ The Devil
Slavery/selfish outlook. Licentiousness/ Robberies.
Overall we think The Auditors as a collective entity that hates life
Teatime? Pin and Tulip? Carcer?
I think Teatime just edges it over the others. The Auditors are entirely without any human traits or emotions, so you can't really attribute evil to them. There's Moist's enemy in Making Money, what was his name
? Cribbins!
16 ~ The Tower
Danger/Setbacks/Unexpected blow. Freeing from prison/risk of serious illness.
Tower of Art - with or without the Draco Nobilis
17 ~ The Star (Pool of the Night)
Dawning of peace hope and prosperity/beauty. Cosmic Harmonies.
Red Star from LF in night sky - reflected in a body of water. Lobsang & Jeremy (ToT)?
18 ~ The Moon
Illusion/mirage/a complicated life
Elves in moon's light - possibly riding yarrow stalks (whatever they are... (L&L) )Lily Weatherwax?
(Susan and Granny are both opponents of illusion and fight it whenever they encounter it (exposing the bogeymen and intolerance of play-acting 8) )
Definitely one of the Lords & Ladies. How about the Queen from The Wee Free Men?
19 ~ The Sun (Dome of the Sky)
Sincere affection. Noble sentiments.
Hard one to discify this. Possibly Druids flying sarsen stones to Llamedos across a sunny sky OR use Egyptian style Nut-type Goddess from Pyramids (pooh'll like that )
Possibly Tiffany or Granny Aching?
20 ~ Judgement
A good card, predicting library work. Stability in business. Health.
AM Watch badge
I guess the librarian is a bit obvious and literal, although 'health' fits, with the exception of 'The Last Continent', but I like him best for Temperance
21 ~ The World
Feminine card.
If a man it’s his thoughts, if a woman it’s her personality. Perfection, Inspiration. Good health.
Great A'tuin, ellies and disc 8)
22 ~ The Fool
In-determination, wrong advice, thoughtlessness, abandonment of material things. Incompetence.
Rincewind - who else?
Clodpool. Well, you asked!
So artists - volunteers, please post your interest by picking a number and then discuss your subject in here if you need more info or explanations
Later suggestions/options in red until meerkat sanctions 8)
1 ~ The Magician
Mankind surrounded by nature. Endowed with enough power to manage your affairs.
Probably one of the UU Wizards but one who fits the description (Ponder? Ridcully?)
Have you considered Albert? After all, he was supposed to have been the most powerful wizard of all and founder of UU to boot. Does this have to be a male character, coz if not, then I'd also consider Granny Weatherwax.
2 ~ The High Priestess
Sanctuary, law, woman, Mother.
Mrs. Cosmopolite in her position as Muse/Sibyl to Lu-Tze and the History Monks. Could also work Anoia into this too as she's sort of a domestic goddess
Nanny Ogg has many of these qualities.
I agree, although I would also consider Sibyl to have at least the same three as Nanny.
3 ~ The Empress
Evolutionary power of fertilised nature.
Lady Margolotta (on the basis of international political clout)Magrat, since she's pretty darned earth mother fertile. And she's queen.
4 ~ The Emperor (The Ruler)
The Energy in man to give his creations a short reality.
Because of that qualification - Terry The Man (Vetinari is still in here just wait a bit :twisted: )
Wm. De Worde?
I'd vote for Vetinari.
5 ~ The High Priest
Spiritual Power which conveys principles.
Hughnon Ridcully (HP of Blind Io)? OR Brutha?
Lu-Tze or the Abbot.
6 ~ The Lovers
Physical love. Urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it.
Carrot and Angua? LONAs?
Tricky. I don't think Carrot & Angua quite fit - Carrot just isn't romantic. I can only think of minor characters for this: Cohen & Bethany (was that her name? In CoM); Wen & Time; Susan & Jeremy/Lobsang. Overall LONAs fit the description best.
7 ~ The Chariot
Material Power. Dominion over passions. Actions of a human being.
The Luggage on the basis (and basics) of carrying material trappings and in particular laundry action... 8)
I like the luggage for this. If not, then maybe Binky.
8 ~ Justice
Happy or painful consequences.
Lord Vetinari - just right!
Sam Vimes. He is justice personified. Even Vetinari must bow to him when it concerns The Law. They are both servants of the Law and Sam certainly upholds it without fear or favour. However as Patrician Vetinari can make or repeal laws (even if he's also subject to them like when he's removed from office in Jingo). Sam can't do that, so I say he's still 2nd choice.
I'd go for Vimes here.
9 ~ The Hermit
Search of Truth. Search for patience. Prudence.
Lu-tze
10 ~ The Wheel of Fortune
Actions in the present affected by the past.
Guild of Gamblers - maybe tie in Fate & the Lady? Moist?
This is Moist all over. He's all about actions in the present being affected by his past. (included on the basis that I loathe Moist so can't be a judge
)I'd go for the Lady, or how about CMOT. Admittedly, it's usually bad fortune in his case, but his actions are affected by the past.
11 ~ Strength (The Importance of Washing the Hands)
Fruits of labour. Ability to tell truth from lies.
Cohen or Hrun cleaning up... from a Health & Efficiency slant - strength through hygiene
Carrot is he wasn't being used elsewhere. Or Detritus, since he strongly committed to cleaning the city of troll drugs. They don't have to be major characters and anyway Cohen isn't as he's in 3 books. We did think of having a Troll but thought the discernment factor was more pertinent (like oiled muscles flexing admittedly) How about the Nac MacFeegle, or the librarian?
12 ~ The Hanged Man
Halt or Suspension. Abandonment/Unshared love.
The gallows dummy in AM (FoC)? I'd say Nutt? Giving a card to a inanimate object? Silly! OVERRULED - NP with objects if the significance fits. :twisted:
I'd have thought this fits Moist rather well, both literally and metaphorically.
13 ~ Death
New Start/New beginnings, even new life. Cut with the past.
Who d'you think?
14 ~ Temperance
Adapting to new experience. Reconciliation in business.
Black Ribbon and bats Maladicta? CMOT (entrepreneurial skills - trend-jumping)?
Twoflower? Maybe not. How about the librarian, he definitely adapted to new experiences.
15 ~ The Devil
Slavery/selfish outlook. Licentiousness/ Robberies.
Overall we think The Auditors as a collective entity that hates life
Teatime? Pin and Tulip? Carcer? I think Teatime just edges it over the others. The Auditors are entirely without any human traits or emotions, so you can't really attribute evil to them. There's Moist's enemy in Making Money, what was his name
16 ~ The Tower
Danger/Setbacks/Unexpected blow. Freeing from prison/risk of serious illness.
Tower of Art - with or without the Draco Nobilis
17 ~ The Star (Pool of the Night)
Dawning of peace hope and prosperity/beauty. Cosmic Harmonies.
Red Star from LF in night sky - reflected in a body of water. Lobsang & Jeremy (ToT)?
18 ~ The Moon
Illusion/mirage/a complicated life
Elves in moon's light - possibly riding yarrow stalks (whatever they are... (L&L)
)Lily Weatherwax? (Susan and Granny are both opponents of illusion and fight it whenever they encounter it (exposing the bogeymen and intolerance of play-acting 8) )
Definitely one of the Lords & Ladies. How about the Queen from The Wee Free Men?
19 ~ The Sun (Dome of the Sky)
Sincere affection. Noble sentiments.
Hard one to discify this. Possibly Druids flying sarsen stones to Llamedos across a sunny sky OR use Egyptian style Nut-type Goddess from Pyramids (pooh'll like that ) Possibly Tiffany or Granny Aching?
20 ~ Judgement
A good card, predicting library work. Stability in business. Health.
AM Watch badge
I guess the librarian is a bit obvious and literal, although 'health' fits, with the exception of 'The Last Continent', but I like him best for Temperance
21 ~ The World
Feminine card.
If a man it’s his thoughts, if a woman it’s her personality. Perfection, Inspiration. Good health.
Great A'tuin, ellies and disc 8)
22 ~ The Fool
In-determination, wrong advice, thoughtlessness, abandonment of material things. Incompetence.
Rincewind - who else?
Clodpool. Well, you asked!
So artists - volunteers, please post your interest by picking a number and then discuss your subject in here if you need more info or explanations
No Problem. Sorry - I hate acronyms normally but online shorthand's so inevitable sometimes when you're in a rush.... Will be adding most of those to the master list (top post) where they depart from what we already have
Re the calligraphy I'm thinking more in terms of a single style as a deck rather than rendered individually, but as it's likely that more than 1 person will be doing these cards, you can experiment if you want to get really creative but I'll PM you a template for the cards soon - because we're keeping them in line with the Roundworld tarot we want Roman numerals rather than Arabic (and use IIII not IV for 4 please - can't be doing with that
) and the line height is limited so that's something for you to take into consideration in context with the image.
Am coming round to Moist actually - even if hanging's too good for him
Thanks for those Arianwen. Keep 'em coming folks even if you're not doing the artwork we do need inspiration and if we get a better suggestion then that's the one we'll likely use when Meerkat does a final sweep on who's or what's representing the various cards.
I know I keep saying it but I've done a template for these now so I'll have a preiminary go at using it this weekend (have finally bitten the bullet and downloaded Art Rage) so we can pull that to bits as well
Nick - I'll be sending you a link to the template by PM shortly as you can then start playing with the calligraphy We want the cards as named in the top post list with roman numerals please - the template will explain 8)
Thanks for those Arianwen. Keep 'em coming folks even if you're not doing the artwork we do need inspiration and if we get a better suggestion then that's the one we'll likely use when Meerkat does a final sweep on who's or what's representing the various cards.
I know I keep saying it but I've done a template for these now so I'll have a preiminary go at using it this weekend (have finally bitten the bullet and downloaded Art Rage) so we can pull that to bits as well
Nick - I'll be sending you a link to the template by PM shortly as you can then start playing with the calligraphy
We want the cards as named in the top post list with roman numerals please - the template will explain 8)
Had some news about this last night - so far as the convention goes we'll probably have to can this part of things altogether as someone (as predicted by Bickaxe) has a licence to market Caroc/Tarot cards next year and, as we're only going to need the one set for the convention, it's probably not worth proceeding with as we can simply buy an official set...
However he hasn't actually said we can't do this, just that he doesn't want it buggering up his official line, so if people want to continue with this part of the project then we can on the basis that it's soley for use for members on here and no money changes hands (which was always going to be the case anyhoo). I know Nick's keen to do some typography for us on this part and we've already had a lot of input from people so I'm happy to carry on with it on that basis.
This doesn't effect the Cripple Mr. Onion decks - he's fine with those and may well come and have a play himself with us at the convention
However he hasn't actually said we can't do this, just that he doesn't want it buggering up his official line, so if people want to continue with this part of the project then we can on the basis that it's soley for use for members on here and no money changes hands (which was always going to be the case anyhoo). I know Nick's keen to do some typography for us on this part and we've already had a lot of input from people so I'm happy to carry on with it on that basis.
This doesn't effect the Cripple Mr. Onion decks - he's fine with those and may well come and have a play himself with us at the convention
Well I think it's probably politic not to since he's one of Terry's bestest mates...?
Seriously - he said that he also had to raise objections to this being done at the Oz and US conventions too so it's obviously been in the pipeline a long time and he's spent serious money on getting engraving done for a bespoke letterpress (hot metal) print run so it sounds like it'll be a really spiffy set and larger than the ones I would have made... As it's out 'next year' we can use that deck instead at the con...
However, I'm going to do a commercial set of my own for DreamWorlds which won't be Discworld-specific obviously, but will incorporate lots of fantasy motifs so I need you to work with me on that if you would please Meer
I don't know where that leaves us with this part of the project, but if anyone agrees with Dotsie then we can carry on with it for the forum side of things only - it's really just the convention that's the bother for this and I don't want to get into fisticuffs with Colin Smythe
Seriously - he said that he also had to raise objections to this being done at the Oz and US conventions too so it's obviously been in the pipeline a long time and he's spent serious money on getting engraving done for a bespoke letterpress (hot metal) print run so it sounds like it'll be a really spiffy set and larger than the ones I would have made... As it's out 'next year' we can use that deck instead at the con...
However, I'm going to do a commercial set of my own for DreamWorlds which won't be Discworld-specific obviously, but will incorporate lots of fantasy motifs so I need you to work with me on that if you would please Meer
I don't know where that leaves us with this part of the project, but if anyone agrees with Dotsie then we can carry on with it for the forum side of things only - it's really just the convention that's the bother for this and I don't want to get into fisticuffs with Colin Smythe
CAROC CARDS
Well Jano, I got your Caroc cards today and was going to send you an email, but you beat me to it.
They are very good but.....
1. I have trouble differentiating between the two red suits and the two black suits. So why don't you make one of the red suits yellow/green. and one of the black suits blue/purple? I see absolutely no reason why there has to be two black suits and two red suits.
2. They are very flimsy and will be destroyed if they come into contact with water. It might not be possible, but can't you spray Scotch guard on them?
Well Jano, I got your Caroc cards today and was going to send you an email, but you beat me to it.
They are very good but.....
1. I have trouble differentiating between the two red suits and the two black suits. So why don't you make one of the red suits yellow/green. and one of the black suits blue/purple? I see absolutely no reason why there has to be two black suits and two red suits.
2. They are very flimsy and will be destroyed if they come into contact with water. It might not be possible, but can't you spray Scotch guard on them?
Thanks pooh - I was going to use thicker card on the day and the water-tightness was also a concern so I'll get onto that.
After hearing from the Cunning One the other day I've now also heard from Colin Smythe who's checking with Stephen Players agent (he's the artist who did the forum turtle) if using the brown back design with the convention blurb is OK with him.
Subject to that we have the green light for the playing cards so, with the likelihood of some form of lamination or special-surface papers being needed, I may ask Lyndsey for some help with the costs of producing a more sturdy deck for the convention - I've already used about 3 lots of cartridges on doing a half dozen prototype decks so even if I spread the cost with other non-design factors I don't want to have to ask for help with making the cards as we won't be able to do this consistently to the standard needed outside of home use. Much more to come on that front I expect.
Black and red and whatever... This was part of my own brief in that I wanted to approach the generic as they might be on Discworld pre-movable type with consequent restrictions on inks, if not on imp artists for the plates... Lets bear this in mind if the others think the same - I was thinking of doing different colours for the caroc, but talked myself out of it. One thing though is that green is probably a no-no as it's too similar tonally to red so causes a problem for people with that kind of colour blindness but other colourways are possible if everyone thinks it's a good idea (wouldn't take a lot of work to re-jig if that's what we'd like).
After hearing from the Cunning One the other day I've now also heard from Colin Smythe who's checking with Stephen Players agent (he's the artist who did the forum turtle) if using the brown back design with the convention blurb is OK with him.
Subject to that we have the green light for the playing cards so, with the likelihood of some form of lamination or special-surface papers being needed, I may ask Lyndsey for some help with the costs of producing a more sturdy deck for the convention - I've already used about 3 lots of cartridges on doing a half dozen prototype decks so even if I spread the cost with other non-design factors I don't want to have to ask for help with making the cards as we won't be able to do this consistently to the standard needed outside of home use. Much more to come on that front I expect.
Black and red and whatever... This was part of my own brief in that I wanted to approach the generic as they might be on Discworld pre-movable type with consequent restrictions on inks, if not on imp artists for the plates... Lets bear this in mind if the others think the same - I was thinking of doing different colours for the caroc, but talked myself out of it. One thing though is that green is probably a no-no as it's too similar tonally to red so causes a problem for people with that kind of colour blindness but other colourways are possible if everyone thinks it's a good idea (wouldn't take a lot of work to re-jig if that's what we'd like).
Defintely having the card school Dostie but not a Discworld Caroc/Tarot as I was (very nicely) warned off by Bernard Pearson - Discworld Emporium are supposedly bringing out a Tarot deck this year having
I'm currently on a separate (probably) commercial project with Meer and a couple of other fey buddies over on DreamWorlds for full tarot (major & minor arcana) which will use wholly original fantasy-themed artwork, so we'll probably end up using that if the bearded one hasn't got his marketing sh*it into gear by then...
The other thread's still pinned and that's the one we'll be going with for the Cripple Mr. Onion card school - am currently costing out 2 special presentation decks with a card maker but will be looking to get our actual generic deck laser-printed locally on better laminated card than I can produce (I have an inkjet printer so have to spray coat the cards and magenta cartridges in particular run out v. quickly!)
The other thread's still pinned and that's the one we'll be going with for the Cripple Mr. Onion card school - am currently costing out 2 special presentation decks with a card maker but will be looking to get our actual generic deck laser-printed locally on better laminated card than I can produce (I have an inkjet printer so have to spray coat the cards and magenta cartridges in particular run out v. quickly!)
Need a bit of virgin feedback on this tarot card (not for Cripple Mr. Onion) - the one I've done first
although I was happy with it, it now doesn't sit too well with the rest of the theming for the other cards in the Major Arcana which is a generalised fantasy/mythology treatment. So I've re-done it but would like some candid opinion please
To help you decide some keywords for 'divination' use by the tarot reader
and a similar card to show what I mean about the theming
although I was happy with it, it now doesn't sit too well with the rest of the theming for the other cards in the Major Arcana which is a generalised fantasy/mythology treatment. So I've re-done it but would like some candid opinion please
To help you decide some keywords for 'divination' use by the tarot reader
and a similar card to show what I mean about the theming
