SPOILERS The Fifth Elephant Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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I agree with you totally, Pi. TFE is my favorite DW books.
However, I don't think that all DW books necessarily deliver 'deeper' meanings on repeated readings.
For me, most of the pre-Mort books don't carry that much literary depth, and none of the Rincewind books (except maybe The Lost Continent) merit deep analysis.
However, I don't think that all DW books necessarily deliver 'deeper' meanings on repeated readings.
For me, most of the pre-Mort books don't carry that much literary depth, and none of the Rincewind books (except maybe The Lost Continent) merit deep analysis.
Good comments guys! I agree.
I’ve recently reread TFE again and enjoyed it a lot more than the first time. In fact I’m rereading the Watch series and it happens the same to me all the time: character’s evolution is amazing! I wouldn’t say this book is my favourite but that each one are unique links and play a very important role in the whole story.
About the characters, their performances are all great: Sybil’s temper, Carrot and Angua’s relationship…
…Cheery’s revolution, Detritus’ Picemaker, Vimes’ Beast at its purest (or in this case darkest)… Am I the only one that saw him like a kind of Bruce Willis in “Die hard”? He isn’t a hero, he is a survivor who knows that to survive sometimes you have to be a bastard, but he isn’t cruel because his values and badge prevent him to be it.
For me great as always!
Mx
I’ve recently reread TFE again and enjoyed it a lot more than the first time. In fact I’m rereading the Watch series and it happens the same to me all the time: character’s evolution is amazing! I wouldn’t say this book is my favourite but that each one are unique links and play a very important role in the whole story.
About the characters, their performances are all great: Sybil’s temper, Carrot and Angua’s relationship…
I found this… XD XD XD
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/servitor2152/Super_Carrot_by_JesIdres.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/servitor2152/Super_Carrot_by_JesIdres.jpg
…Cheery’s revolution, Detritus’ Picemaker, Vimes’ Beast at its purest (or in this case darkest)… Am I the only one that saw him like a kind of Bruce Willis in “Die hard”? He isn’t a hero, he is a survivor who knows that to survive sometimes you have to be a bastard, but he isn’t cruel because his values and badge prevent him to be it.
For me great as always!
Mx
I think TFE is where we first really see "The Beast" in its full manifestation. It appears when essentially there's nothing left--the Law, hope, family, duty are out of the picture and all that's left is the primal instinct to destroy. We get ths first hint of its existence in Jingo, but, fortunately, Vimes holds it back long enough to be saved from its nihilistic conclusion.
As I've said before, TFE is really the book where most of the main characters go through transitions that add new dimensions. Cheery fully embraces her female nature. Angua embraces her inner wolf. Detritus truly becomes "intelligent" in a diplomatic way. Sybil finally is able to contribute in crucial ways to the resolution of events. Gaspode finds his inner "wofl." And, most of all, Carrot shows a side of him that is, for once, not heroic or kingly. For all these reasons and more, TFE still remains my favoriteDW book.
As I've said before, TFE is really the book where most of the main characters go through transitions that add new dimensions. Cheery fully embraces her female nature. Angua embraces her inner wolf. Detritus truly becomes "intelligent" in a diplomatic way. Sybil finally is able to contribute in crucial ways to the resolution of events. Gaspode finds his inner "wofl." And, most of all, Carrot shows a side of him that is, for once, not heroic or kingly. For all these reasons and more, TFE still remains my favoriteDW book.
This book is very interesting regarding the development of Uberwald. I always wanted to know more and here it is! Plenty of traditions, races, places, politics, etc. Love it! I never get tired of Uberwald.
What i find utterly disgusting, is the cheesy turn of Carrot into a more grown up man (which removes all that was funny about Carrot.. His high social skills mixed with naivety were great for me in the past) and Angua becoming a tragic sort-of-hero. Angua was always an angry character, but this book puts her at another level, more like those TV love-shows for teenagers, with that IHATE YOU- INEED YOU relation with Carrot...
Yuk
What i find utterly disgusting, is the cheesy turn of Carrot into a more grown up man (which removes all that was funny about Carrot.. His high social skills mixed with naivety were great for me in the past) and Angua becoming a tragic sort-of-hero. Angua was always an angry character, but this book puts her at another level, more like those TV love-shows for teenagers, with that IHATE YOU- INEED YOU relation with Carrot...
Yuk
I don't see it that way at all. Carrot isn't "showing off;" he's becoming selfish because he's lost his dog. Angua's "abandonment" signals that his ability to manipulate everyone to be his "subjects" in his non-declared kingly way is beginning to loosen. He certainly knows that Angua will be fine on her own, but that isn't good enough for him. He can't accept change that affects him personally unless it's on his own terms. He's not "nice" at all in the book. Instead of convincing Gaspode to follow him using his usual kingly powers of persuasion he has to bribe the little doggie and generally doesn't treat him kindly. Instead of helping Angua when he finally finds he gets in her way, creating a third wheel in her relationship with Gavin. He serves no real purpose in helping to solve the "crime", and doesn't even get an audience with the low king of the dwarfs---something any dwarf, real or adopted, would kill for.
Carrot doesn't leave because he wants to show everyone how invaluable he is--he leaves because he needs to reclaim his authority over his most important "subject." And he tells Vetinari that is resigning, not taking a leave of absence. He doesn't expect to be back, which suggests that he might be willing to live with Angua in the Uberwald way, something the Carrot of old would never accept. In TFE, Pratchett is very consciously bringing Carrot down to size, removing the would-be-king aura that he wore in previous books. It's necessary for Carrot to lose this power in order for Vimes to grow in stature as one of the DW"s most important civic figures.
And Vetinari in fact does not appoint Colon simply because he wants to show Carrot how bad it will get without him in charge. Carrot is not in charge of the Watch; Vimes is. Vetinari knows that the city will not dissolve into bedlam in Carrot's absence because, as he says himself, he knows that the criminal elements are fully aware of what will happen to them once Vimes returns. By TFE, it's the power of VImes, not Carrot, that has the ability to strike fear in the hears of wrongdoers. After all, it was Vimes who arrested two armies and the city's most respected vampire. What unlicensed thief would want to face that?
In fact, when Carrot does return, he doesn't return to a city dissolved into dystopia, but a city that is still calm and collected. The only thing that's in disarray is the Watch, and Carrot realizes only then that this is what happens when he is derelict in his duty. But this Carrot isn't able--or is simply unwilling--to muster his kingly authority to right the situation himself. Instead, he has to send Nobby and Colon out to do his dirty work for him. He doesn't even get to have his usual audience with Vetinari.
Carrot is not nice in this book. If you're a Vimes fan, you relish Carrot's narrative downfall as you read it. Never again does he re-emerge as King Carrot; and the future Watch novels are far better for it.
Carrot doesn't leave because he wants to show everyone how invaluable he is--he leaves because he needs to reclaim his authority over his most important "subject." And he tells Vetinari that is resigning, not taking a leave of absence. He doesn't expect to be back, which suggests that he might be willing to live with Angua in the Uberwald way, something the Carrot of old would never accept. In TFE, Pratchett is very consciously bringing Carrot down to size, removing the would-be-king aura that he wore in previous books. It's necessary for Carrot to lose this power in order for Vimes to grow in stature as one of the DW"s most important civic figures.
And Vetinari in fact does not appoint Colon simply because he wants to show Carrot how bad it will get without him in charge. Carrot is not in charge of the Watch; Vimes is. Vetinari knows that the city will not dissolve into bedlam in Carrot's absence because, as he says himself, he knows that the criminal elements are fully aware of what will happen to them once Vimes returns. By TFE, it's the power of VImes, not Carrot, that has the ability to strike fear in the hears of wrongdoers. After all, it was Vimes who arrested two armies and the city's most respected vampire. What unlicensed thief would want to face that?
In fact, when Carrot does return, he doesn't return to a city dissolved into dystopia, but a city that is still calm and collected. The only thing that's in disarray is the Watch, and Carrot realizes only then that this is what happens when he is derelict in his duty. But this Carrot isn't able--or is simply unwilling--to muster his kingly authority to right the situation himself. Instead, he has to send Nobby and Colon out to do his dirty work for him. He doesn't even get to have his usual audience with Vetinari.
Carrot is not nice in this book. If you're a Vimes fan, you relish Carrot's narrative downfall as you read it. Never again does he re-emerge as King Carrot; and the future Watch novels are far better for it.
I'd pretty much agree with that, raisindot. The only previous book that I had any liking of Carrot in was G!G! - after that he became Superman without Kryptonite. If you create a character that is too perfect they become very difficult to write for. Pretty much all the great characters in literature, no matter how smart or capable, always needs some character fault. They need to be challenged and to learn by that challenge. Even characters such as Sherlock Holmes has all manner of failings that stop him from immediately solving a crime.
Carrot and Angua have got an odd relationship. As raisindot says, it's more about a man and his dog. When the faithful hound runs away, it is more than Carrot can stand. He convinces himself that he is going to rescue her and screws it up so badly that it's him that needs rescuing.
Personally, I am very glad of the diminished role that Carrot plays in the books. Someone was saying elsewhere about Terry's female characters. Angua is a good example of how well Terry can write for his women. She is far from perfect, makes lots of mistakes but she is strong and independent . . . until Carrot tames her. In TFE she manages to break away from that somewhat I think.
Carrot and Angua have got an odd relationship. As raisindot says, it's more about a man and his dog. When the faithful hound runs away, it is more than Carrot can stand. He convinces himself that he is going to rescue her and screws it up so badly that it's him that needs rescuing.
Personally, I am very glad of the diminished role that Carrot plays in the books. Someone was saying elsewhere about Terry's female characters. Angua is a good example of how well Terry can write for his women. She is far from perfect, makes lots of mistakes but she is strong and independent . . . until Carrot tames her. In TFE she manages to break away from that somewhat I think.
As a Vimes fan, I can't deny that it was satisfying to have him so definitively be the tarnished sun around which the book revolves. Still, I really don't read Carrot leaving as an attempt to reassert his slipping dominion/ownership over Angua at all. To me, it seems like a fairly understandable move for anyone in a relationship. Angua leaves, without notice to anyone, following a period of some emotional turmoil, likely for somewhere that Carrot knows is a location of some unrest given the Low King situation, and he's supposed to- what? Sit there like a good Carrot and pretend he doesn't have a girlfriend? He's already demonstrated worry about her absence to Vimes & co. when they departed for Uberwald. Angua's been building up to this for some time, starting in FOC, and her leaving and Carrot following is, in a way, foreshadowed in Jingo. Carrot cares for Angua, and he will follow and make sure of her safety- it's really very in character.
It's been mentioned before that Carrot believes that the personal is not the same as important, but in this case the two very much overlap for him. That he turns in his notice reflects how much he understands that. Like raisindot mentioned, I think this shows that he would be willing to settle down in Uberwald with Angua, if that's what she wants. He understands that Angua is distressed over the "werewolf thing" and about their future together (and has been for a while), and this reads to me like a fairly big indicator to Angua of just how important she is to him. It's also growth in an interesting direction for typically uber-responsible Carrot- him placing his and Angua's relationship over his work shows him breaking away from the kingly, perfect Carrot. Yeah, it's selfish, but that's human and lookie here- Carrot's finally, finally human. Carrot's still himself in TFE, but here the focus of his storyline is very much on the personal scale rather than the usual dramatic scope his actions usually dwell in. In TFE, that's in Vimes's wheelhouse. I don't look askance at Carrot's storyline being so concentrated on the personal or dismantling Carrot's image for something more three-dimensional- for me, it's an obvious step because so far we've only seen one Carrot and he's far too gleaming to exist in DW.
Wrt Gavin: It's not like he deliberately creates a third-wheel- if anyone is responsible for that, it's Angua, who honestly seems like the most selfish/irresponsible player here (which is not to say that I'm not terribly fond of her and understand her struggle). She could have left a note, she could have confronted Carrot but instead she just slips off, knowing full well that Carrot would follow.
It's been mentioned before that Carrot believes that the personal is not the same as important, but in this case the two very much overlap for him. That he turns in his notice reflects how much he understands that. Like raisindot mentioned, I think this shows that he would be willing to settle down in Uberwald with Angua, if that's what she wants. He understands that Angua is distressed over the "werewolf thing" and about their future together (and has been for a while), and this reads to me like a fairly big indicator to Angua of just how important she is to him. It's also growth in an interesting direction for typically uber-responsible Carrot- him placing his and Angua's relationship over his work shows him breaking away from the kingly, perfect Carrot. Yeah, it's selfish, but that's human and lookie here- Carrot's finally, finally human. Carrot's still himself in TFE, but here the focus of his storyline is very much on the personal scale rather than the usual dramatic scope his actions usually dwell in. In TFE, that's in Vimes's wheelhouse. I don't look askance at Carrot's storyline being so concentrated on the personal or dismantling Carrot's image for something more three-dimensional- for me, it's an obvious step because so far we've only seen one Carrot and he's far too gleaming to exist in DW.
Wrt Gavin: It's not like he deliberately creates a third-wheel- if anyone is responsible for that, it's Angua, who honestly seems like the most selfish/irresponsible player here (which is not to say that I'm not terribly fond of her and understand her struggle). She could have left a note, she could have confronted Carrot but instead she just slips off, knowing full well that Carrot would follow.
[snip many other good points too]
Oh, I agree, definitely. You make many excellent points. But Vetinari has one other issue with Carrot that I think you haven't addressed: Vetinari's post is, technically, as the placeholder for the king. If Carrot ever did decide that Ankh-Morpork needed a king, theoretically Vetinari should step aside. I see Vetinari as attempting to train this hot-headed, still somewhat charismatic, still-a-teenager descendant of kings in what needs to be taken care of to run a city. Example: Carrot is still a lowly watchman, subordinate to Vimes, even subordinate to Colon, yet he has already worked closely with Vetinari in designing the new Watch in order to get Vimes to not retire after the wedding. Carrot is also younger than Vimes and is far more likely to outlive both Vetinari and Vimes. Somebody has to be properly trained to be able to take over, for the good of the city, and the city is Vetinari's passion. If his charisma holds out, Carrot could take over anyway, so it's best for the city that Carrot be trained properly. He heads out to Uberwald to follow his girlfriend (despite his proclaimed 'personal is not important' attitude) without even appointing someone to take charge of the Watch in his absence; as you said, that is dereliction of duty.
That's a writerly reason. Within the context of the book, Carrot also needs to be taken down a peg for his own character growth, if possible. He needs to learn that people do have the right to say no to him. Unfortunately, even at the end of T5E, he hasn't really learned that.
And he lies, claiming they swore allegiance to him when they did not. Really, nobody has. Also, everybody who quit the Watch had the right to do so. It's not a life sentence, it's a job, and there's nothing in the oath about never being allowed to leave.
"Not nice" doesn't begin to cover it. Carrot is nasty.
Oh, I agree, definitely. You make many excellent points. But Vetinari has one other issue with Carrot that I think you haven't addressed: Vetinari's post is, technically, as the placeholder for the king. If Carrot ever did decide that Ankh-Morpork needed a king, theoretically Vetinari should step aside. I see Vetinari as attempting to train this hot-headed, still somewhat charismatic, still-a-teenager descendant of kings in what needs to be taken care of to run a city. Example: Carrot is still a lowly watchman, subordinate to Vimes, even subordinate to Colon, yet he has already worked closely with Vetinari in designing the new Watch in order to get Vimes to not retire after the wedding. Carrot is also younger than Vimes and is far more likely to outlive both Vetinari and Vimes. Somebody has to be properly trained to be able to take over, for the good of the city, and the city is Vetinari's passion. If his charisma holds out, Carrot could take over anyway, so it's best for the city that Carrot be trained properly. He heads out to Uberwald to follow his girlfriend (despite his proclaimed 'personal is not important' attitude) without even appointing someone to take charge of the Watch in his absence; as you said, that is dereliction of duty.
That's a writerly reason. Within the context of the book, Carrot also needs to be taken down a peg for his own character growth, if possible. He needs to learn that people do have the right to say no to him. Unfortunately, even at the end of T5E, he hasn't really learned that.
And he lies, claiming they swore allegiance to him when they did not. Really, nobody has. Also, everybody who quit the Watch had the right to do so. It's not a life sentence, it's a job, and there's nothing in the oath about never being allowed to leave.
"Not nice" doesn't begin to cover it. Carrot is nasty.
[AVAST, YE SPOILERS AHEAD!]
It really isn't within Vetinari's power to give Carrot the throne even if he (Carrot) demands it. As we saw in both Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, the guilds and aristocrats really have the power to proclaim a king or elect (or depose) a Patrician. (That they have to resort to dragons, gonnes or Pin and Tulip demonstrates how fearful they are about confronting Vetinari directly.) The guilds don't want Carrot to be king, because he would be a king in the old style who would want to run everything. That's why they reject D'eath's case for Carrot in MAA and "choose" Nobby as their figurehead king in FOC.
When Vetinari shows Carrot the ancient and crumbling AM throne at the end of MAA Carrot sees just how illusory the monarchy of AM really is, and just how flimsy the throne of King Carrot would be if he proclaimed his birthright. Even before that time Carrot isn't fully convinced that he should make a claim--he's much more committed to being the "man of the city," where he can gain the respect and authority of the populace without the politics of kingship. But, of course, Carrot isn't stupid; he knows how to wield his claim of kingship to force Vetinari's hand in terms of expanding the Watch and promoting Vimes' rise up the social strata--a rise that takes Carrot along with him. In any case, Vetinari doesn't need Carrot's prodding to understand that a larger and more assertive Watch with a fully realized Vimes (with Carrot as backup) benefits his own Machiavellian efforts as well. And, literally, saves his skin on several occasions.
It really isn't within Vetinari's power to give Carrot the throne even if he (Carrot) demands it. As we saw in both Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, the guilds and aristocrats really have the power to proclaim a king or elect (or depose) a Patrician. (That they have to resort to dragons, gonnes or Pin and Tulip demonstrates how fearful they are about confronting Vetinari directly.) The guilds don't want Carrot to be king, because he would be a king in the old style who would want to run everything. That's why they reject D'eath's case for Carrot in MAA and "choose" Nobby as their figurehead king in FOC.
When Vetinari shows Carrot the ancient and crumbling AM throne at the end of MAA Carrot sees just how illusory the monarchy of AM really is, and just how flimsy the throne of King Carrot would be if he proclaimed his birthright. Even before that time Carrot isn't fully convinced that he should make a claim--he's much more committed to being the "man of the city," where he can gain the respect and authority of the populace without the politics of kingship. But, of course, Carrot isn't stupid; he knows how to wield his claim of kingship to force Vetinari's hand in terms of expanding the Watch and promoting Vimes' rise up the social strata--a rise that takes Carrot along with him. In any case, Vetinari doesn't need Carrot's prodding to understand that a larger and more assertive Watch with a fully realized Vimes (with Carrot as backup) benefits his own Machiavellian efforts as well. And, literally, saves his skin on several occasions.
I believe that Angua did tell Carrot she was going. Early in the book, Carrot receives a note by carrier pigeon. Presumably, this is a "Dear Carrot" note of some kind written by her for him. Almost immediately after, he resigns his position to go after her. We never know what the message says, but we can assume that it's something along the lines of "I'm leaving you and the Watch to go back home to Uberwald where I have to sort some things out." In the Carrot worldview, where Angua has been his faithful dog until this point, this is unacceptable. For this first time, "personal" becomes more important than "duty." Whether he leaves to bring her back or leaves to be with her we never really know, although the fact he resigns, rather than asks for a leave of absence, hints that he may be thinking long-term.
I just reread that scene where Vetinari shows Carrot the rotting throne.
He also mentions the origin of the word "politician."
If Vetinari thinks of himself as a politician, then that may shed light on something Sir Terry once said. People were suggesting that Moist von Lipwig was being trained as a successor to Vetinari, and Sir Terry said that Moist would make a bad Patrician, but that he would make a very good politician.
He also mentions the origin of the word "politician."
If Vetinari thinks of himself as a politician, then that may shed light on something Sir Terry once said. People were suggesting that Moist von Lipwig was being trained as a successor to Vetinari, and Sir Terry said that Moist would make a bad Patrician, but that he would make a very good politician.
[AVAST, THERE BE LITTLE SPOILERS AHEAD]
Yes, I thought that by the end of Making Money Vetinari was subtly grooming Moist to be the next patrician--a different kind of partrician, one who rules through showmanship and grifting rather than quiet diplomacy and behind the scenes manipulation. But we see in Raising Steam that, seven years later, Moist is still Vetinari's indentured servant, albeit a very wealthy, highly respected and very happily married one.
Yes, I thought that by the end of Making Money Vetinari was subtly grooming Moist to be the next patrician--a different kind of partrician, one who rules through showmanship and grifting rather than quiet diplomacy and behind the scenes manipulation. But we see in Raising Steam that, seven years later, Moist is still Vetinari's indentured servant, albeit a very wealthy, highly respected and very happily married one.
Yes, of course - Vetinari is still alive, still in position - but Moist is being carefully trained, and Vetinari won't live forever. When the day comes, Moist will be able to step in, all the more easily because he's very good at making people like him, and unlike Carrot's "krisma," Moist's talents work long-term. Vetinari uses showmanship when he wants to, as he did when he insisted that Vimes arrest him. Grifting is just another word for manipulation by deception. They are very much alike; Vetinari is making sure that Moist feels he has a stake in the city, a stake worth protecting.
But any further specific discussion should probably move to the Making Money thread.
But any further specific discussion should probably move to the Making Money thread.
Wow! Guys, it is so interesting to read your posts! 
II’ve never debated about this with more than one person so it’s great to see all your opinions. I agree and disagree with some of you and I feel like it’s time for me to come...
To Carrot’s rescue too!
I’ve always seen Carrot as a terrific caricature of wise, good and stereotyped kings and heroes, but at the same time a deep character. He represents all the positive things of humanity and is a lighthouse to all the other characters, counteracting their darkness with his light. He’s pure but nobody’s fool. He doesn’t want to “control” people, he cares for them selflessly and there isn’t a trace of anything but altruism and understanding in his eyes. People are his reason for being.
But when he runs after Angua in TFE (renouncing to everything important for him), I believe it’s because he has found another reason. And that reason is her.
You call that selfishness, I call that true love.
Mx
II’ve never debated about this with more than one person so it’s great to see all your opinions. I agree and disagree with some of you and I feel like it’s time for me to come...
To Carrot’s rescue too!
I’ve always seen Carrot as a terrific caricature of wise, good and stereotyped kings and heroes, but at the same time a deep character. He represents all the positive things of humanity and is a lighthouse to all the other characters, counteracting their darkness with his light. He’s pure but nobody’s fool. He doesn’t want to “control” people, he cares for them selflessly and there isn’t a trace of anything but altruism and understanding in his eyes. People are his reason for being.
But when he runs after Angua in TFE (renouncing to everything important for him), I believe it’s because he has found another reason. And that reason is her.
You call that selfishness, I call that true love.
Mx
Up until TFE, I agree with you about Carrot, but there's subversiveness in Pterry's portrayal of him as a Polyanna. While we may possess the qualities of an oak-crown king, he is woefully deceptive of political headwinds, as we see in Jingo, where he is, at best, the "small picture" man to Vimes' soaring desire to stop the "big crime."
But, I would argue that in TFE he is not motivated by love. He has received as "Dear John" letter from Angua. If he truly loved her, he would let her go. But he can't accept that. His loyal dog has run away. He needs the resolution to be of satisfaction to him, even if that means he has to do nasty things, like forcing Gaspode to accompany him (the little doggie didn't really have a choice here) and leaving the Watch to fend for itself, shirking his duty at a time when the city needs him most to maintain control in Vimes' absence (although we see that ultimately the city does survivle without both of them fo awhile). He isn't in "love," he's obsessive. And his obsession causes all kinds of problems for Angua and Vimes. But this is one of the best aspects of the novel; Pterry is very purposelly "dethroning" Carrot here, showing us the dark side of his nature. It's one of the many aspects that makes TFE a pivotal book in the Watch series. The continuation of a "kingly" Carrot would have made Night Watch, Thud! and Snuff difficult, if not impossible, to carry out. Carrot's importance as a narrative lynchpin needed to be punctured to allow VImes to continue to grow into his role as the most important driver of social and political change on the DW.
I always felt that these sort of idealistic messages would be something a Discworld book would deconstruct. IMHO, "loving someone" doesn't mean you let them go when they say "I must go now", and it certainly doesn't mean not asking questions, even when you have to track down the person in question. IMHO, it means you want this other person to be happy and take an active part in ensuring their happiness, which is essentially what Carrot did. Also, I think love is in its nature selfish, but in a way that tells you "I want to feel good about this other person feeling good about the things I do with/for/to them"
Are the things Carrot did morally questionable? I think, from what I've read regarding fan oppinions, this all depends on Carrots motives, and his motives aren`t made clear at all. Is the Goddess of Narrativity merely smiling down upon her favourite Gary Stu? Or is he really thinking about the things he does much more than he lets on, and decided that he, too, deserves a personal bit of happiness? I don't think it is clear at all, and this ambiguity is what makes TFE so great, I think
From time to time, I like to entertain the thought that Carrot knew what he was doing on the bridge, fighting against Wolfgang, but I don`t think less about him for it, because he is, by design, a character that gives much of himself to the city of Ankh-Morpork. Sometimes you need something you can call your own, and this is something both Angua and Carrot seem to agree on (as Angua tells Vimes "Carrot's mine!").
Are the things Carrot did morally questionable? I think, from what I've read regarding fan oppinions, this all depends on Carrots motives, and his motives aren`t made clear at all. Is the Goddess of Narrativity merely smiling down upon her favourite Gary Stu? Or is he really thinking about the things he does much more than he lets on, and decided that he, too, deserves a personal bit of happiness? I don't think it is clear at all, and this ambiguity is what makes TFE so great, I think
From time to time, I like to entertain the thought that Carrot knew what he was doing on the bridge, fighting against Wolfgang, but I don`t think less about him for it, because he is, by design, a character that gives much of himself to the city of Ankh-Morpork. Sometimes you need something you can call your own, and this is something both Angua and Carrot seem to agree on (as Angua tells Vimes "Carrot's mine!").
