THE HOBBIT ~ Discuss and Spoil!
- Thread starter Jan Van Quirm
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There has to be a certain amount of antagonism between Thorin and Bilbo which does derive from the book although in there it was mainly exasperation mingled with distrust. The disdain also has to be there because, unlike the dwarves (and Gandalf bringing Thorin's father's map and key), Bilbo is merely 'hired help' and, initially at least, not there because of allegiance or dedication to their cause, but because of uncharacteristic thrill-seeking and a share of the loot (from Thorin's perspective). His only real reason for going with them is because Gandalf wants him along and he'd be useful because of the 'back door' and so to Thorin at least he's almost spare baggage and not that useful to boot.
In the book Thorin treats Bilbo as a mild nuisance almost throughout and even when Bilbo rescues them all in Mirkwood and gets them to the Long Lake, because he, Thorin, isn't around for most of the trouble with the spiders (he's taken prisoner by the Elves before that happens) he's not entirely warmed to Bilbo until they actually get into the Lonely Mountain, only to almost immediately reject him again when he 'deserts' the Dwarves to try and stop a battle between them and the Elves and the Laketown Men. It's not a 'buddy' relationship at all, even without the frankly stupid additional stirring of the Azog strand since the warg/orc confrontation after exiting the mountain doesn't involve him with a one on one with Thorin at all in the book (as he'd died long before in the histories).
Bazza as the Great Goblin is a cartoon, but then that characrter is even in the book - he's supposed to be grotesque but also powerful and so far as he's concerned the film does stay with the original pretty well although as usual Jackson's fiddled around greatly with the battle sequence choreography to help keep the much-needed pace up to scratch (shades of Moria in there from LotR, but then it is a similar environment
).
In the book Thorin treats Bilbo as a mild nuisance almost throughout and even when Bilbo rescues them all in Mirkwood and gets them to the Long Lake, because he, Thorin, isn't around for most of the trouble with the spiders (he's taken prisoner by the Elves before that happens) he's not entirely warmed to Bilbo until they actually get into the Lonely Mountain, only to almost immediately reject him again when he 'deserts' the Dwarves to try and stop a battle between them and the Elves and the Laketown Men. It's not a 'buddy' relationship at all, even without the frankly stupid additional stirring of the Azog strand since the warg/orc confrontation after exiting the mountain doesn't involve him with a one on one with Thorin at all in the book (as he'd died long before in the histories).
Bazza as the Great Goblin is a cartoon, but then that characrter is even in the book - he's supposed to be grotesque but also powerful and so far as he's concerned the film does stay with the original pretty well although as usual Jackson's fiddled around greatly with the battle sequence choreography to help keep the much-needed pace up to scratch (shades of Moria in there from LotR, but then it is a similar environment
).
I think the film version of Thorin is also far less trusting of Gandalf as well. Thorin appreciates the need for a burglar to get them into the mountain but appears to be wonder what in the world Gandalf is playing at picking the home loving and bookish Mr Baggins. This is something that always bothered me about the book to be honest.
If I'm honest I hadn't read the book in an age (I didn't even own a copy and bought one from Waterstones after coming out the cinema) and initially thought that Azog was invented for the film I had expected him to offed by Thorin in the final fight but I'll see how it plays out in the second part of the trilogy.
Seeing as Smaug couldn't really be revealed in An Unexpected Journey I thing the combination of the menacing Azog and the comic Great Goblin made fine substitute villains in my opinion.
If I'm honest I hadn't read the book in an age (I didn't even own a copy and bought one from Waterstones after coming out the cinema) and initially thought that Azog was invented for the film
I had expected him to offed by Thorin in the final fight but I'll see how it plays out in the second part of the trilogy.
Bazza as the Great Goblin is a cartoon, but then that character is even in the book - he's supposed to be grotesque but also powerful and so far as he's concerned the film does stay with the original pretty well although as usual Jackson's fiddled around greatly with the battle sequence choreography to help keep the much-needed pace up to scratch (shades of Moria in there from LotR, but then it is a similar environment )
)
The Azog storyline isn't really in The Hobbit at all but it was 'written' for various appendices and for other outline/background work that goes into the general mix for the various components of The History of Middle Earth as edited by Christopher Tolkien before and after The Silmarillion was assembled. The 'official' history for TH was put in when the book was revised once LotR was going to be published to make the two fit together more consistently with the additional material that gets covered in The Shadow of the Past and The Council of Elrond.
In context with canon (so the book) Azog is actually killed by Thorin's father Thrain in the battle as flashbacked to so he's long gone for TH timeline, BUT Azog's son, Bolg is the leader of the Northern orcs who does come into TH much later on for the final culminating Battle in Erebor. Basically he exploits the power vacuum left by the death of the Great Goblin (no relation to Azog at all) and musters the orcs to take vengeance for the ancient hostility between Durin's Clan and the Misty Mountain orcs and also grab some dragon gold of course.
The dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf do fight with wargs more than goblins after briefly escaping the mountains (the Out of the Frying Pan chapter) and get rescued by the Eagles but no heroic fighting at all takes place.
And you're quite right -Thorin also doesn't like that Gandalf's got his father's map and key too much either and is highly skeptical of his motives in seeking them out, but again this takes place before The Unexpected Party and is skipped on by and large. In the subsequent writings Gandalf explains by saying that when he found Thrain the poor dwarfie had completely lost his marbles and didn't even tell Gandalf his name or his son's so that was why he hadn't come to find Thorin years earlier . Perhaps this will covered more in film 2 or 3 depending on how soon they're going to bring in the Dol Guldur sections as that is nearly all 'not' part of TH, except by omission under the heading of 'what Gandalf got up to while the Dwarves and Bilbo got through Mirkwood'
In context with canon (so the book) Azog is actually killed by Thorin's father Thrain in the battle as flashbacked to so he's long gone for TH timeline, BUT Azog's son, Bolg is the leader of the Northern orcs who does come into TH much later on for the final culminating Battle in Erebor. Basically he exploits the power vacuum left by the death of the Great Goblin (no relation to Azog at all) and musters the orcs to take vengeance for the ancient hostility between Durin's Clan and the Misty Mountain orcs and also grab some dragon gold of course.
The dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf do fight with wargs more than goblins after briefly escaping the mountains (the Out of the Frying Pan chapter) and get rescued by the Eagles but no heroic fighting at all takes place.
And you're quite right -Thorin also doesn't like that Gandalf's got his father's map and key too much either and is highly skeptical of his motives in seeking them out, but again this takes place before The Unexpected Party and is skipped on by and large. In the subsequent writings Gandalf explains by saying that when he found Thrain the poor dwarfie had completely lost his marbles and didn't even tell Gandalf his name or his son's so that was why he hadn't come to find Thorin years earlier . Perhaps this will covered more in film 2 or 3 depending on how soon they're going to bring in the Dol Guldur sections as that is nearly all 'not' part of TH, except by omission under the heading of 'what Gandalf got up to while the Dwarves and Bilbo got through Mirkwood'
Again, I understand the motives of the filmmakers of expanding the story and the characters, as I do the reason why Thorin is an ar**hole. It just seems that it could have been taken down just one notch.
And I wasn't complaining about Barry Humphries being the Great Goblin. I thought he was absolutely great! I just thought nothing further needed to be said on the subject of his performance. Hell, even his last line when Gandalf guts him is priceless. After all that bluster about how they can't escape, when he gets gutted, he says, casually, "Yep. That'll do it." Black comedy at its finest.
And I wasn't complaining about Barry Humphries being the Great Goblin. I thought he was absolutely great! I just thought nothing further needed to be said on the subject of his performance. Hell, even his last line when Gandalf guts him is priceless. After all that bluster about how they can't escape, when he gets gutted, he says, casually, "Yep. That'll do it." Black comedy at its finest.
Quatermass said:
And I wasn't complaining about Barry Humphries being the Great Goblin. I thought he was absolutely great! I just thought nothing further needed to be said on the subject of his performance. Hell, even his last line when Gandalf guts him is priceless. After all that bluster about how they can't escape, when he gets gutted, he says, casually, "Yep. That'll do it." Black comedy at its finest.
I like the Azog stuff in that it explains all the orcses in the book. Instead of 'Gee, aren't there a lot of orcs around?' it's 'Gee, who's sending all these orcs after us?'.
Very much work in progress but I think I might have the beginnings of "The Hobbit Movie Drinking Game"
Rule 1: Take a drink every time somebody falls off a cliff or otherwise drops from a great height.
Rule 2: Take another drink if they survive unscathed.
Rule 3: Take a drink every time Thorin tells Bilbo he shouldn't have come.
Rule 4: Take a drink every time Bilbo agrees with Thorin that he shouldn't have come.
Rule 5: Take a drink every time Gandalf turns up apparently out of nowhere to save the Dwarves and Bilbo for almost certain destruction.
That's all I've got so far but I'm sure they'll loads more from the second and third films as well.
Rule 1: Take a drink every time somebody falls off a cliff or otherwise drops from a great height.
Rule 2: Take another drink if they survive unscathed.
Rule 3: Take a drink every time Thorin tells Bilbo he shouldn't have come.
Rule 4: Take a drink every time Bilbo agrees with Thorin that he shouldn't have come.
Rule 5: Take a drink every time Gandalf turns up apparently out of nowhere to save the Dwarves and Bilbo for almost certain destruction.
That's all I've got so far but I'm sure they'll loads more from the second and third films as well.
Sounds like a surefire way to die from alcohol poisoning... :think:
You should post it on TV Tropes. Seriously, they do that sort of thing.
Indeed, they have one for The Lord of the Rings. To whit:
BTW, in case you don't know, Narm is an overly hammy performance in an otherwise serious moment of fiction. That's what I get the impression, anyway.
You should post it on TV Tropes. Seriously, they do that sort of thing.
Indeed, they have one for The Lord of the Rings. To whit:
BTW, in case you don't know, Narm is an overly hammy performance in an otherwise serious moment of fiction. That's what I get the impression, anyway.
Hi Quatermass;
I love TV Tropes even though I don't always know what they are on about Unlike sites such as IMDB and Cracked it never descends into name calling and general rudeness.
I've often wondered whether anyone actually plays any of the various drinking games attached to films and TV dramas. If I tried the LotR one you posted above I'd be bee unconscious the film was half over. Imagine doing it with the special edition of Return of the King To me they are more like a way of affectionately sending something up.
I love TV Tropes even though I don't always know what they are on about
Unlike sites such as IMDB and Cracked it never descends into name calling and general rudeness. I've often wondered whether anyone actually plays any of the various drinking games attached to films and TV dramas. If I tried the LotR one you posted above I'd be bee unconscious the film was half over. Imagine doing it with the special edition of Return of the King
To me they are more like a way of affectionately sending something up.
SimonAtford said:
I've often wondered whether anyone actually plays any of the various drinking games attached to films and TV dramas. If I tried the LotR one you posted above I'd be bee unconscious the film was half over. Imagine doing it with the special edition of Return of the King To me they are more like a way of affectionately sending something up.
To me they are more like a way of affectionately sending something up.
There's even one for Doctor Who.
Here are the general rules. There are custom rules for each Doctor...
Okay, off-topic stuff over.
Okey dokey. I thought the songs were very well done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 78TmJJ4gZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QibzE9I6pU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 78TmJJ4gZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QibzE9I6pU
Off to see it AGAIN tomorrow!
Loved it! Richard A is stupendously yummy as Thorin Oakenshield? Cor! Pause for a lie down and a cooling drink! That's better!
Thought it was a clever ending too! The "oh-oh" from the audience watching the film with us was a hint that there are dedicated Hobbiters out there ready to be critical and as there was applause at the end I gathered a full cinema was more than happy!
Best bits: the smouldering look as Thorin goes to battle the Orc pratt on the white Warg.
the outfit Thorin was wearing in the forst shots of the dwarfs
Radaghasat leading the wargs to where the Party were trying to run to..
oooh, and tons more things.
Loved it! Richard A is stupendously yummy as Thorin Oakenshield? Cor! Pause for a lie down and a cooling drink! That's better!
Thought it was a clever ending too! The "oh-oh" from the audience watching the film with us was a hint that there are dedicated Hobbiters out there ready to be critical and as there was applause at the end I gathered a full cinema was more than happy!
Best bits: the smouldering look as Thorin goes to battle the Orc pratt on the white Warg.
the outfit Thorin was wearing in the forst shots of the dwarfs
Radaghasat leading the wargs to where the Party were trying to run to..
oooh, and tons more things.
I'm still in two minds about the rabbits, to be honest. I wonder if Peter Jackson might have been better off using wolves on the basis that real world wolves are rather noble animals (in my opinion) and would have been a great contrast against the evil wargs. That said, I expect that there is some lore that says Middle Earth wolves are nasty, evil beasties.
Penfold said:
I'm still in two minds about the rabbits, to be honest. I wonder if Peter Jackson might have been better off using wolves on the basis that real world wolves are rather noble animals (in my opinion) and would have been a great contrast against the evil wargs. That said, I expect that there is some lore that says Middle Earth wolves are nasty, evil beasties.
SimonAtford said:
Penfold said:
I'm still in two minds about the rabbits, to be honest. I wonder if Peter Jackson might have been better off using wolves on the basis that real world wolves are rather noble animals (in my opinion) and would have been a great contrast against the evil wargs. That said, I expect that there is some lore that says Middle Earth wolves are nasty, evil beasties.
Quatermass said:
For someone who is basically a hippy wizard who is more than a bit on the absent-minded side, I'd say that giant rabbits are actually a wonderful choice as Radagast's steeds. Plus, it's so damned funny and awesome at the same time!
Is it me, or is Sylvester McCoy really good at gurning? :think:
Is it me, or is Sylvester McCoy really good at gurning? :think:
Don't know about Sylvester's McCoy's gurning. Don't recall him doing that much as the 7th Doctor.
