SPOILERS The Last Continent Discussion **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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I thought Ponder thought he was in on the beginning of creation... Adam and Eve at least..... you know the buzz... Earth begins.... we evolve, we rule the earth, nuclear winter and the only thing that survives are the cockroaches.
Two minds about this though with me.... I think Ponder is an evolutionist... if its done "properly"... out of the stagnant slime sort of thing... so is he shocked that the God is starting at the end for the beginning.... or is he horrified that the God ISN'T starting at the beginning?
Or does he just HATE cockroaches? And the thought of a world populated by them?
It had me a bit confused. Any opinions?
Two minds about this though with me.... I think Ponder is an evolutionist... if its done "properly"... out of the stagnant slime sort of thing... so is he shocked that the God is starting at the end for the beginning.... or is he horrified that the God ISN'T starting at the beginning?
Or does he just HATE cockroaches? And the thought of a world populated by them?
It had me a bit confused. Any opinions?
I re-read TLC recently and I found I liked it better second time around.
The aussie references I found a bit obvious - lump all the cliches about Australia together, give them a discworld spin and run Rincewind through the mix. Not much there, I thought.
The God of Evolution idea was fun though, the very idea sort of short-circuits the Creationism "debate".
The aussie references I found a bit obvious - lump all the cliches about Australia together, give them a discworld spin and run Rincewind through the mix. Not much there, I thought.
The God of Evolution idea was fun though, the very idea sort of short-circuits the Creationism "debate".
poohcarrot said:
So why the cockroach, then? 
Firstly, to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this is a pro-evolution book, here are just 8 quotes. They are all from the Josh Kirby paperback and as some of the quotes are very long, I'll just put in the page numbers.
1. Page 15 'Apes and humans are related'
2. Page 26/27 Evolution.
3. Page 51 'The Ascent of Man'
4. Page 94 'Millions of years'
5. Page 119/120 Creationist argument against evolution leading to 'But lemmings didn't turn into birds' .
True! Birds are actually descended from dinosaurs.
6. Page 121 A dinosaur (thunder lizard) turns into a bird (chicken).
7. Page 181 'People breed dogs for fierceness and racehorses for speed'
Dogs and racehorses (and roses) have evolved recently due to selective breeding and are examples of evolution in action today.
8. Page 388 The Librarian evolves every time he sneezes into an 'obviously successful shape for survival' in different environments.
I don't think very many people doubt you. 
The god on the island is trying his hand at creating, but doesn't really understand the concept of evolution - the passing on of genes. Evolution is fighting back though and his creations have a strong desire to procreate and make copies of themselves. Something that the god doesn't understand at all.
If you want a good example of evolution in action you only have to look at bacteria. Humans discovered antibiotics to fight them and that worked for a while, but the bacteria keeps on mutating to get past the defences that humans put up. A programme I saw yesterday suggested that we'll have run out of antibacterial protection in as little as ten years.
Bacteria is highly motivated to adapt and evolve. And I'm not talking about flagellum wottsits either!
The god on the island is trying his hand at creating, but doesn't really understand the concept of evolution - the passing on of genes. Evolution is fighting back though and his creations have a strong desire to procreate and make copies of themselves. Something that the god doesn't understand at all.
If you want a good example of evolution in action you only have to look at bacteria. Humans discovered antibiotics to fight them and that worked for a while, but the bacteria keeps on mutating to get past the defences that humans put up. A programme I saw yesterday suggested that we'll have run out of antibacterial protection in as little as ten years.
Bacteria is highly motivated to adapt and evolve. And I'm not talking about flagellum wottsits either!
poohcarrot said:
So why the cockroach, then?
Creationists believe there is no such thing as evolution and that God created all the animals in one day, 6,000 years ago.
This means that the God creationists believe in, is in fact the God of Evolution. Everything evolved from God's hands.
In the Bible, God doesn't just wave his hands and create human beings. He actually has to put a bit of work in, moulding clay, removing ribs etc etc. Therefore in order to create all the other animals, it's reasonable to assume he had to put some more work in. The Bible doesn't tell us exactly how he created all the other creatures, but the Last Continent does - using small tools and trial and error.
(The dinosaurs were a bit of an error. )And just how the creationist God created over 400,000 different species of beetles (hence the beetles in LC) in just one day, makes the mind boggle.
poohcarrot said:
So why the cockroach, then?
Creationists believe God created every living thing. This means as well as the fluffy bunny rabbits, kittens and puppies, he also created wasps, mosquitoes and (of course) cockroaches. The creationist God must have created pests, vermin and ceatures that are harmful to human beings.
But Monty Python can explain this better than me.
"All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid--
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen."
And here's a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooaGhYFHIzg
My Cockroach Theory - Conclusion
I believe tha God of evolution in LC is actually the same as the creationist God. 8)
I believe that TP was taking the p*ss out of the creationist God, therefore taking the p*ss out of creationists themselves.
The fact that a few years later, with Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen, he wrote the excellent Darwin's Watch (Science of Discworld III) seems to support my theory.
PS Feel free to destroy this theory in anyway you seem fit.
I believe tha God of evolution in LC is actually the same as the creationist God. 8)
I believe that TP was taking the p*ss out of the creationist God, therefore taking the p*ss out of creationists themselves.
The fact that a few years later, with Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen, he wrote the excellent Darwin's Watch (Science of Discworld III) seems to support my theory.
PS Feel free to destroy this theory in anyway you seem fit.
I really tried re-reading this. I really did. But I got halfway and stopped. I just couldn't get through it.
The best thing I can say about it is that it's probably the best of the Rincewind books, but, like all Rincewind books, it's pretty much the standard theme of Rincewind getting plunked into some strange place and serving as straight man for all the whacky creatures 'n characters around him. This time it's Oz instead of parodies of Faust or Dante or other fantasy genres.
Considering how many of the great 'mid-period' masterpieces (Small Gods, Men at Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo, Lords and Ladies, Soul Music, Hogfather) Pterry had written by this time, one wonders, other than for commercial reasons, why he would go another round with his least interesting character and most literary-limited series. The fact that he hasn't written a Rincewind-starring book since is a pretty good indication that he felt there wasn't much gas left in this thank.
The best thing I can say about it is that it's probably the best of the Rincewind books, but, like all Rincewind books, it's pretty much the standard theme of Rincewind getting plunked into some strange place and serving as straight man for all the whacky creatures 'n characters around him. This time it's Oz instead of parodies of Faust or Dante or other fantasy genres.
Considering how many of the great 'mid-period' masterpieces (Small Gods, Men at Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo, Lords and Ladies, Soul Music, Hogfather) Pterry had written by this time, one wonders, other than for commercial reasons, why he would go another round with his least interesting character and most literary-limited series. The fact that he hasn't written a Rincewind-starring book since is a pretty good indication that he felt there wasn't much gas left in this thank.
