SPOILERS The Truth Discussion **Spoilers**

[RathDarkblade]

Thanks for the heads up, Tony. My current WIP (Work-In-Progress) is the 4th or 5th novel I'm writing (I've lost count) that's set in either ancient Rome or Greece. My audience is teenagers, but seriously, anyone who's interested in ancient Rome/Greece is welcome.

I'll check out Lindsey's books. Thanks!

 

[Woofb]

I am intrigued by the little we know of Mr. Tulip's history--his belief in the potato, which sounds to me like a 3 or 4 year old's misunderstanding of what was being said -- and apparently in a church. For some reason it feels Russian to me, or perhaps Borogravian. Certainly, as DEATH says, he believes devoutly, but he doesn't know what or who he believes in. And of the two murderers, he is so much more fascinating, I think. Where and how did he acquire his extensive, specialized art knowledge? But, he is capable of being really sorry for what he'd done in this life.

I think Terry makes him comic in that he's always managing to purchase something that isn't a real drug (even though Slab, etc. are easily available) but he gets chalk or sugar of something. I wonder what it is he's trying to forget?

But I love the way Terry handles them in the end. Tulip as happy woodworm munching away through the honest-to-gods antique desk--"a woodworm checked its way contently through the ancient timber. Reincarnation Enjoys a joke as much as the next philosophical hypothesis. As it chewed, the woodworm thought: This is --ing good wood!" While the potato--with a startling resemblance to someone we know will, in spite of his efforts to avoid his fate---fry!

Yes, like Russia at several points and Borogravia in Monstrous Regiment, PTerry is making a point that someone with no matter how much natural understanding of the arts may eventually come up against starvation in sub-zero temperatures and as long as you have basic food that's more important--which is why it's Mr Pin who is the essential guilty psychopath. PTerry tends to build at least one into most of his later Watch novels--like Carcer, Teatime etc,

 

[RathDarkblade]

Yes, like Russia at several points and Borogravia in Monstrous Regiment, PTerry is making a point that someone with no matter how much natural understanding of the arts may eventually come up against starvation in sub-zero temperatures and as long as you have basic food that's more important.

Didn't Pterry make a similar point in NW, where the "rebels" are in charge of the food and drink, even though they are starved of such "essential" services like governance, religion and the arts?

...which is why it's Mr Pin who is the essential guilty psychopath. PTerry tends to build at least one into most of his later Watch novels--like Carcer, Teatime etc,

Hmm. Would you put Mr. Clete ("Hat. Hat. Hat.") in that group of psychopaths, I wonder? And what about Lord Rust's son, from "Snuff"?

Speaking of which, what about Lord Rust himself (especially in "Jingo" and "Night Watch")? Thankfully Vimes can moderate the worst of Rust's excesses in both J and NW. But if Vimes hadn't been there -- and in J, he almost wasn't -- I shudder to think what would've happened in the other Trouser of Time.

I know Mr. Clete isn't a psychopathic murderer like Teatime or Carcer, but consider his personality: he doesn't let the Band with Rocks In play to earn money, so they can pay their dues. Later, he authorises the guild enforcers to kill TBWRI, and even pursues and tries to kill them himself.

All that speaks of a man who is maniacally resolute in enforcing the rules, good or bad. It reminds me not a little of Inspector Javert from Les Miserables.

Where would Salzella fall under all this, I wonder? Or Captain Swing? Or -- yes, or Vorbis? And aren't Captain Swing and Vorbis very similar characters -- both "murderers and creators of murderers", as Death puts it?

Just wondering what you think.

 

[raisindot]

Yes, like Russia at several points and Borogravia in Monstrous Regiment, PTerry is making a point that someone with no matter how much natural understanding of the arts may eventually come up against starvation in sub-zero temperatures and as long as you have basic food that's more important--which is why it's Mr Pin who is the essential guilty psychopath. PTerry tends to build at least one into most of his later Watch novels--like Carcer, Teatime etc,

The main different between Pin and Tulip is that, until the end, Tulip has no self-awareness. He is completely reactive. He doesn't look for drugs because he's suffering childhood trauma. He doesn't murder people because he loves killing. He does these things because he doesn't have an inner life. He doesn't know right from wrong. He doesn't think about his violent actions end lives. Which explains his "potato faith." His lives life at the most essential. Pin, on the other hand, has a very developed inner life. He knows exactly who he is. And he takes joy in being the bastard he is. Which is why, in Death's view, Pin is unredeemable, while Tulip deserves a second chance--even if it's just a wooden existence.

Oh, and BTW, Teatime was not in a Watch novel. He was the villain of Hogfather.

 

[=Tamar]

There are degrees of difference on the same spectrum, and also differences of type among Terry's villains. They all begin, as Granny Weatherwax said, with treating people as things, as a means to an end. But some of them have an obsession that is understandable - Mr. Swing is obsessed with measurement and a theory, to the loss of all humanity. He's a sort of mad scientist without an Igor. Edward d'Eath is also obsessed with a theory, but he might not have gone as far as he did if he hadn't encountered something meaner. The minor villains in Hogfather, like Banjo, have backstories and are somewhat understandable if abhorrent, like Tulip in The Truth, while the main villain is in a category that makes even Pin seem faintly less ghastly.

Lord Rust is a merely human villain, an aristocrat who is, unfortunately for everyone else, lucky in battle and assumes that everyone else is just carelessly getting killed. His obsession is common to the aristocracy - a belief that they are somehow mysteriously better because their ancestors stole their money long ago.

 

[raisindot]

I think the most consistent villain through the stories is Mr. Slant. He is involved in most of the conspiracies to depose Vetinari, yet always manages to escape retribution. I suppose that's party because it's hard to put a zombie to death, but more likely because Vetinari fully understands that these endless conspiracies to remove him from power are a part of the game of politics in Ankh Morpork. It's an endless chess game, and when one side or the other wins, you simply put the pieces back and start over.

 

[Tonyblack]

I agree with you about Vetinari seeing it as a game. I think he finds life boring when people aren't trying to kill him.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I agree with you about Vetinari seeing it as a game. I think he finds life boring when people aren't trying to kill him.

I thought that was Vimes? He even sets traps around the place to catch out would-be assassins.

I don't think of Mr Slant as a villain. He's always very careful that everything he does is strictly legal. It's not his fault if the law isn't "good".

Then again, lawmakers don't concern themselves with good and evil, only order and chaos. If you don't believe that, then consider Hammurabi's laws (or Draco's) from a our point-of-view. Just one example: according to Hammurabi, if a woman commits adultery, both she and her "co-conspirator" must be tied together and thrown into the river to drown. From our POV, obviously, this is unspeakable; in Hammurabi's time, it must've been considered acceptable.

The whole point of a law is to prevent society from falling to bits. If the law is socially acceptable, that's a bonus.

Because of that, I don't think Slant is a villain. He doesn't write the laws, politicians like Vetinari and former patricians (and kings) do. Slant only interprets the laws, so everyone knows the rules by which A-M operates.

 

[=Tamar]

Um.. doesn't Slant at one point say "you see those law books? I wrote most of them"? Or am I confusing him with the Dragon King of Arms?

 

[RathDarkblade]

I can't remember him saying that. Maybe it's said about him?

Even if he compiled the law books, he doesn't make laws. He just writes them down, whether he agrees with them or not.

 

[=Tamar]

Maybe in The Truth?

Anyone who keeps the minutes of meetings knows the difference between what is said and what is written down.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Aha! Nope, it's in "Making Money" (hardback, pp. 314-5):

Mr Slant did not, despite what had been said, have the respect of Ankh-Morpork's legal profession. He commanded its fear...

...You know those leather-bound tomes you have on the wall behind your desk to impress your clients? I have read them all, and I wrote half of them. Do not try me. I am not in a good mood.

(When the lawyers for the Lavish family stand up to protest, after Vetinari quotes the late Mrs Lavish as saying about them that they were "as nasty a bunch of weasels as you could ever hope not to meet--"

P.S. I'd just been listening to Stephen Briggs reading MM, and when he got to that bit, I nearly jumped out of my chair.

P.S.S. I often listen to talking books while doing bank reconciliations at work. So I was listening to MM while -- guess what -- also Making Money! Serendipity!) Ahem.

 

[raisindot]

Um.. doesn't Slant at one point say "you see those law books? I wrote most of them"? Or am I confusing him with the Dragon King of Arms?

Slant himself doesn't actually say that. Pterry does as narrator during the inquiry scene in Making Money, after Vetinari mentions that Slant has the respect of the entire Ankh Morpork legal community. Pterry as narrator says something to the effect that "Slant didn't have their respect--he had their fear. His fierce demeanor said to them, 'See all the law books on your bookshelves? I not only know all of them by heart but I wrote many of them.'"

 

[RathDarkblade]

Um, I'm confused. That's just what I said (above)? *points up*

 

[=Tamar]

Thank you RathDarkblade for finding the quotation, and Raisindot for emphasizing that it was narration, not anyone actually saying those words in the scene. Although it was in MM, not TT, I feel it is relevant that Slant is possibly a long-term villain. Unlike most of the shadowy figures in the background of Ankh-Morpork politics, Slant is named, and he works for the shadowy figures.

 

[RathDarkblade]

He does, but Slant also works for the City (read: Vetinari).

So it seems like Slant will work for anyone who's prepared to pay his fee. That's pure capitalism, isn't it? No-one ever said capitalism had to be nice (although it's "nicer" than all the other forms of government).

 

[raisindot]

One of my favorite parts of The Truth is when William is able to blackmail Slant into representing him for nothing and the zombie reacts with a rare display of emotion when he says, "Pro bono publico?"

 

[OttoTheOtter]

I just finished reading this book recently, and while the plot was a big raggedy at times, I enjoyed it greatly ^.^ I looooove Otto so so so so much. The flair, the voice, the dedication to his craft! The temperance mission thing is adorable and it's such a clear picture in my head - a biscuit and a sing-song

For some reason I was less keen on Mr Pin and Mr Tulip, except for Mr Tulip's art moments. They had a great ending, but for some reason I just found the things they were getting up to less exciting than William and Sacharissa's desperate attempts to keep the city's news free from fiction. They were good characters, just maybe not quite what I was looking for that month?

Speaking of the city's news, this is thematically my jam! I just finished a thesis at uni which had a lot to do with the developments of the periodical press in the late 18th and early 19th centuries in Scotland. This is obviously more of a parallel with a bit before, when the press was introduced, but there was a lot that was the same with the time period I studied, due to the rapid expansion of texts available. That time too completely messed with the fabric of reality. It's why every time I hear people talk about how social media has affected our lives, I think of the personas from Blackwoods and how it's not really anything specific to now. I think of William now too.

The villain being William's father was a stroke of genius. It was clear that he was involved from early on, but I found that this fact became more intense when William started to realise himself. I loved the combination of power and control over the media and how that all works to affect the nature of a city.

Overall I really enjoyed this book

 

[raisindot]

Glad you liked it, Otto. If you have a chance, listen to Stephen Briggs' outstanding audiobook version. He gets nearly every single voice absolutely perfect, especially Pin, Tulip(his invocation of Mr. Tulip's "___ings" are amazing), Gaspode, the printing press dwarfs, Vimes, Vetinari, Death and Slant. And, as an Otto fan, I'll bet you'll never be able to imagine him speaking any other way once you listen to Brigg's portrayal.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I second raisindot's recommendation! I borrowed the audiobook from the library. Stephen Briggs is my favourite. (Sorry, Nigel) =(

I just finished a thesis at uni which had a lot to do with the developments of the periodical press in the late 18th and early 19th centuries in Scotland.

Oh? *raises eyebrow* Then you might enjoy my satirical take on the newspapers of today - what would newspapers be like, if the headlines had to be alliterative?

I also wrote a (fairly long) take on what history would've been like, if it was written by the tabloids. =P I also included newspaper ads and such! It was lots and lots of fun to write