SPOILERS Thief of Time Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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Finishing touches to the theory
If the auditors killed time, they would also have killed Time. Time obviously knew this.
Time chose to have two babies in order to carry out the main function of time ie; the constant destruction and creation of the Universe.
Jeremy was the one who destroyed the universe, and Lobsang was the one who created it again.
It was all cleverly planned by Time who knew exactly what would happen all along, because she pre-remembered it.
If the auditors killed time, they would also have killed Time. Time obviously knew this.
Time chose to have two babies in order to carry out the main function of time ie; the constant destruction and creation of the Universe.
Jeremy was the one who destroyed the universe, and Lobsang was the one who created it again.
It was all cleverly planned by Time who knew exactly what would happen all along, because she pre-remembered it.
If my theory is wrong, answer this;
Why did Time and Wen give their babies away to be adopted? Surely a demi-god (or whatever) and an intelligent History Monk, with the super powers they obviously possessed, were more than capable of raising children.
Time sacrificed watching her children grow up in order to defeat the Auditors. This explains why she was crying. (I don't remember the actual quote, but Kakaze mentioned it) 8)
Why did Time and Wen give their babies away to be adopted? Surely a demi-god (or whatever) and an intelligent History Monk, with the super powers they obviously possessed, were more than capable of raising children.
Time sacrificed watching her children grow up in order to defeat the Auditors. This explains why she was crying. (I don't remember the actual quote, but Kakaze mentioned it) 8)
poohcarrot said:
What, nothing?
Jan much earlier said:
Jeremy is Lobsang and Lobsang is Jeremy - they're not [identical or even fraternal] twins but the same person so he/they are a polarity not a paradox. By virtue of Time being their mother and Wen being an adept of existing forever through sliced time... they are a balance of physical [and instinctive/'non-cognitive'] time (Lobsang) and conceptual/cerebral/perceived time (Jeremy) set in a polarised time niche by their parents so their singular but separated actualities can exist in the same place (the Disc) at exactly same time.
They've been separated to make/end the paradox that the Auditors want to create to destroy time so they are the balancing factors to achieve the removal of the time anomaly (the glass clock) as though it had never happened (and yes it's fiction so this can be done however Terry calls it because it is quantum).
It's a story about balance in effect - Order and Chaos cancel each other out and so does the realignment of Jeremy/Lobsang in A-M and then back in the History Monk's valley where the integrated Lobsang is able to re-balance the glass clock's damage and thus repair the anomaly so it never existed - I think.
They've been separated to make/end the paradox that the Auditors want to create to destroy time so they are the balancing factors to achieve the removal of the time anomaly (the glass clock) as though it had never happened (and yes it's fiction so this can be done however Terry calls it because it is quantum).
It's a story about balance in effect - Order and Chaos cancel each other out and so does the realignment of Jeremy/Lobsang in A-M and then back in the History Monk's valley where the integrated Lobsang is able to re-balance the glass clock's damage and thus repair the anomaly so it never existed - I think.
It is important not to see Jeremy and Lobsang as the two sons - Time gave birth to one child who is both Jeremy and Lobsang at the same time but they are delivered separately (again another superlative slicing trick that Nanny takes as being some weird kind of twin birth) and then set in different but simultaneous 'time-streams'. Consequently, as you're saying they are destined to create and destroy the glass clock, meaning of course that the Auditors will fail even as they succeed in stopping Time.
A week ago Time and Wen pulled off all kinds of clever slicing anomalies so she gave birth to the same child TWICE with Jeremy (the intellectual and mathematically gifted portion of the duality who, as a result is socially dysfunctional because he's all brain and obsession) going to the Clockmakers Guild and Lobsang (the physically adept portion who can do all the cool slicing and the stance of the Coyote instinctively without knowing how the hell he did it) to the Thieves. Once Lobsang and Jeremy are able to converge and integrate they are the self-cancelling cause of the glass clock's paradoxical creation/destruction (for there must be one
) which means the mandala and the procrastinators can then be reset seamlessly so effectively that the whole disaster simply never happened. 8) As for the stationery cupboard - I suppose that's inevitable but they probably had chocolate afterwards, during and before (almost certainly with coffee beans) :twisted:
personally, I try to forget ... Especially when you try so hard to forget..
I do tend to forget it's just a fantasy as well as to think of them as real... I like them so much that this is exactly what i want to think...Don't be angry, but I don't want to read a book or to write about it reminding myself that's not real...
it would be kind of sad.. 
I'm among those who agree with Pooh
kakaze said:
Killing Time was never part of the plan. They wanted to trap her in order to prevent anything from ever changing.
I still don't buy it. Having two babies just seem like too much effort to achieve the same end result that you'd get by not having any babies at all!
I still don't buy it. Having two babies just seem like too much effort to achieve the same end result that you'd get by not having any babies at all!
Dotsie said:
But then you'd have no babies You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
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CrysaniaMajere said:
Especially when you try so hard to forget.. I do tend to forget it's just a fantasy as well as to think of them as real... I like them so much that this is exactly what i want to think...
Don't be angry, but I don't want to read a book or to write about it reminding myself that's not real... it would be kind of sad..
I'm among those who agree with Pooh
I do tend to forget it's just a fantasy as well as to think of them as real... I like them so much that this is exactly what i want to think...Don't be angry, but I don't want to read a book or to write about it reminding myself that's not real...
it would be kind of sad.. I'm among those who agree with Pooh
I agree with you completely, they ARE real, just as real in my head as anywhere in this horrible place that we are forced to exist and try to reconcile with our own outlook on what people should do and be, Live and let Live, Stop Killing each other Constantly, Stopbeing abusive, BE NICE DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!! now ... is that too much to ask?
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BTW, I said almost exactly the same think, yes I mean Thing/think/thought, in another thread. I have made a partition in my head that lets me think of Discworld as a Still magical place and manage to do this "Tear the book to shreds and holler at my screen when I do not agree" thing that we call discussion. Still there for me to escape to, but able to logically, like a brain surgeon, dissect and ponder and comment. I know that may not make sense, but, I DON"T CARE!!!!!
Still there for me to escape to, but able to logically, like a brain surgeon, dissect and ponder and comment. I know that may not make sense, but, I DON"T CARE!!!!!
The whole point of fiction is to 'switch off' reality to some degree - with fantasy fiction it's almost mandatory, especially when you're reading something so well defined and justified as Discworld (or whichever other fantasy worlds do it for you). And as we prove on here over and over, if the author is doing their job effectively (and Terry does naturally), then the reader's imagination responds to the stimulus and we do 'believe' and visualise what we're reading as being real, because Terry makes us care about Lu Tse dying and that Death will get the regular three members of the Four ready to ride out in time despite Mrs. War's very reasonable and determined objections and that Susan and Lobsang will get it together in the end etc etc.
It's the difference between reading a good book and having a great reading experience - you do suspend reality especially with the recurring characters that you know and love so well so that, whilst you know it's a satirical book and there's any number of correlations with the plot and real life going on, you get caught up in the action and it comes to life inyour head. You enter into the spirit of the story and suddenly you're not worrying about what metaphor's being built up in there, because you need to know Lu Tse's not really dead at all. It's a book that's there to be enjoyed on several levels, but the rationale for the story is subsiduary to the actual immersion process even if you've read it before. Terry is a modern day Shakespeare, because all his tales have real meaning and heart. I can't think of a bigger compliment to a writer than to have their work perceived as 'real' if only for a few hours and he achieves this constantly and so yeah of course we talk about Lobsang and Susan like they're real people, because they've been made that well. I'll think about the allusions and Roundworld analogies afterwards thanks - for now I just want to go along on the ride with Binky
Oh yeah and the thing with Quoth - he's the Death of Rats Binky or even Albert isn't he? So he doesn't get to age either as he's out of Time whilst he's knocking around in Death's Domain
It's the difference between reading a good book and having a great reading experience - you do suspend reality especially with the recurring characters that you know and love so well so that, whilst you know it's a satirical book and there's any number of correlations with the plot and real life going on, you get caught up in the action and it comes to life inyour head. You enter into the spirit of the story and suddenly you're not worrying about what metaphor's being built up in there, because you need to know Lu Tse's not really dead at all. It's a book that's there to be enjoyed on several levels, but the rationale for the story is subsiduary to the actual immersion process even if you've read it before. Terry is a modern day Shakespeare, because all his tales have real meaning and heart. I can't think of a bigger compliment to a writer than to have their work perceived as 'real' if only for a few hours and he achieves this constantly and so yeah of course we talk about Lobsang and Susan like they're real people, because they've been made that well. I'll think about the allusions and Roundworld analogies afterwards thanks - for now I just want to go along on the ride with Binky
Oh yeah and the thing with Quoth - he's the Death of Rats Binky or even Albert isn't he? So he doesn't get to age either as he's out of Time whilst he's knocking around in Death's Domain
Dotsie said:
But then you'd have no babies You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
But even so, she's having the babies to have the babies, not save the world. The world wouldn't have been in danger if she didn't have the babies in the first place.
I could buy that she could foresee the consequences of having a baby, and then intentinally had the same baby in two bodies, so that they could balance each other. Apparently she wanted to retire too, so it fits. However, that begs the question, "why not have him in one body and raise him at home?"
I've known plenty of intellegent people that make awful parents. And being a discworld god doesn't necessarilly make you even as intelligent as the average human. I forget which book it was (I think it was Small Gods), but I remember reading about how dumb the moon goddesses were. And strange monks who live on mountain-tops aren't known for their child-rearing abilities.
Sorry, but it still looks like poorly-planned pregnancy followed by neglect to me. :twisted:
Jan Van Quirm said:
Oh yeah and the thing with Quoth - he's the Death of Rats Binky or even Albert isn't he? So he doesn't get to age either as he's out of Time whilst he's knocking around in Death's Domain
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