SPOILERS Thief of Time Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
- Jan 5, 2010
- 1,018
- 2,600
- 32
poohcarrot said:
I could have sworn Mystmoon is a student AND British and she didn't know it either. But York is further north than Manc so that probably explains it. 
Late entry
I realise I'm a little late to this topic, but this is my favourite Discworld book, so bear with me. This will be rather a long post
as I'm reading through it all and answering points as I go along. I hope you'll bear with me. Then again, no one's forcing you to read this 
.
Purely as a matter of interest, the most developed sense in new-borns is that of touch, hence their habit of putting everything into their mouths. The lips have more touch sensitive nerves than any other part of the human body.
Incest, paedophilia, torture, imagination, creativity, malevolence... I could go on. As for malevolence, although nasty, you can't really say that the Auditors are evil or malevolent, they lack the imagination for that. In many respects I agree with the baby comparison and, as such, you could say that they're innocent, at least in their normal guise. Not having any emotions, you can't attribute any intentions to them .
I don't think that that means he doesn't like football, more that he's making fun of people's obsession with it. After all, 'Unseen Academicals' is all about 'foot-the-ball' (amongst other things. It's never that simple with TP).
Wasn't this another lesson for Lobsang, though I'm not sure what it was supposed to teach him? Maybe that nothing is what it seems?
But in 'Hogfather' the anthropomorphic personifications do have life-timers, albeit special ones, and Teatime talks about 'killing' Death (at least he hints at it). He says:
in the scene in Downey's office where he's taking the commission.
I thought that Gregor Mendel was the one who did that
and I thought Richard Dawkins brought evolution and genetics together in 'The Selfish Gene'.
Time doesn't pass in Death's domain (E.g. Albert only has a few days left in Soul Music and uses up some of that when he goes looking for Death). In 'Hogfather' Death says that the Hogfather works outside time, "How else could he visit all those houses in one night?" and I'm sure that somewhere in the Discworld novels it says that Death can be in many places at once, so he too must work outside time. I assume something similar is true for (
) Quoth ,as he's the Death of Rats's Binky (in case you didn't know, '"Nevermore," quoth the raven' is a repeating line from Edgar Allan Poe's poem 'The Raven').
Time, the anthropomorphic personification, wouldn't see time the way we do, i.e. linearly, but all at once. There are two parallels to explain what I mean: the wormhole aliens in STS9 and the Tralfamadorians in 'Slaughterhouse 5'. The wormhole aliens have a great deal of difficulty in grasping the concept of linear time and the Tralfamadorians see us like a stack of images at different stages in our lives all at once.
There is a Martin Amis novel, one of the inspirations for which was 'Slaughterhouse 5', where time unravels backwards, so that good and evil are exchanged (Nazi bombers swallowing up bombs to repair ruined towns and cities; bringing people out of the gas chambers and back to life; doctors making people ill). I've never read it, but it was called 'Time's Arrow: or The Nature of the Offense', apparently the original title for 'London Fields', which I have read.
I don't think Death did know, rather that he inferred it. It was the Death of Rats that first senses that something is wrong and builds the complicated machine that butters toast and lets it fall onto bits of carpet. It's this demonstration that sets Death on the track of the Auditors in the first place.
I do like Pooh's theory, it's very neat and fits all the 'facts', but I agree, I think that everyone's forgetting that Wen and Time were very much in love
. Whether that invalidates Pooh's theory is another matter, but it does make Time a bit calculating
. Anyway, there's no paradox at all here really: if Time hadn't had one son that got split into two separate entities at birth there wouldn't have been a novel in the first place! I think it's called poetic license
!
Exactly! There is a sense in which the books are really real too: because they are metaphors for our own lives. There is a depth to these books that never ceases to move me
. They speak to our common humanity. By dressing the stories up as fantasy and with humour, he can poke fun at our foibles, but at the same time you can see that there's a deep affection and sympathy there too. And while I'm on the subject of Discworld books in general, one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the books' endings: they're perfect! I've never known another author who finishes a book as well as Sir Terry
.
Sorry about the Quoth/Binky thing above Jan, I hadn't read this far when I wrote that. Great minds think alike, eh?
Not exactly, but Lu-Tse is in Ankh-Morpork when Vimes has travelled back in time in 'Night Watch', although the history monks have a temple behind the Shonky Shop, but I kind of got the impression that it was around that time, so, as Dotsie says, it can't have been that long ago (if I remember correctly, Sam got sent back about 20 years).
Don't you mean mom-sense
? Sorry, I couldn't resist that one! You will find yourself using this if you have kids - sometimes you get fed up with explaining everything and end up saying "because I said so!"
I haven't heard the latter before. As for the former, I've often wondered about this saying. I know that it expresses surprise - similar to "Knock me down with a feather", but I could never work out where it came from. I've asked around, checked references &c, including a book that came out about seven years ago in which the derivations of British sayings were given, but not this one. Can anyone explain it to me? I'm also wondering whether "If wishes were horses…" means the quite the same thing as "If ifs and buts…". And I hadn't heard of either of Dotsie's
.
As for my own observations:
This book has many indirect references to Taoism (or Daoism - cf Taoism - there are two latinization (or romanization) systems: the older Wade-Giles system and the modern Pinyin system. I'll be using the Wade-Giles with the Pinyin in parentheses). I'm no expert on Taoism, but nevertheless... Authorship of the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing) is attributed to Lao-Tzu (= "Old Master", also Laozi - cf Lao-Tzu). This book is "widely regarded to be the most influential Taoist text" and "a foundational scripture of central importance in Taoism". There is much academic debate as to the date and author of this book
, but I won't go into that. Anyway, you can see the reference to Lu-Tse's name, as well as his nick-name (I think it was in 'Night Watch' where he explains why he's called 'Lousy' to Vimes). The terms 'Tao' and 'Te' are common to both Taoism and Confucianism. Lao-Tzu is traditionally believed to have been one of Confucius's teachers although some believe that the Tao Te Ching is a reaction to Confucianism. Either way, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism all greatly influenced one another, particularly in the Neo-Confucian school, which combined aspects of all three doctrines. They all share similar, humanist, values, emphasizing moral behaviour and human (spiritual) perfection, while rejecting the material.
If I had to vote for just one Discworld book, this would be it; a masterpiece
.
I realise I'm a little late to this topic, but this is my favourite Discworld book, so bear with me. This will be rather a long post
.Purely as a matter of interest, the most developed sense in new-borns is that of touch, hence their habit of putting everything into their mouths. The lips have more touch sensitive nerves than any other part of the human body.
I don't think that that means he doesn't like football, more that he's making fun of people's obsession with it. After all, 'Unseen Academicals' is all about 'foot-the-ball' (amongst other things. It's never that simple with TP).
Wasn't this another lesson for Lobsang, though I'm not sure what it was supposed to teach him? Maybe that nothing is what it seems?
But in 'Hogfather' the anthropomorphic personifications do have life-timers, albeit special ones, and Teatime talks about 'killing' Death (at least he hints at it). He says:
in the scene in Downey's office where he's taking the commission.
Jan Van Quirm said:
No, they didn't know zip about DNA, but they started the ball rolling towards the genetic sciences, with Darwin's refined and persistent studies and experiments in Kent contributing the bulk of evidence that he was able to present the Royal College in the form of The Origin of Species and the Descent of Man amongst other work, including human sexual selection, also featured (he studied that very well indeed fathering numerous children )
)
Time doesn't pass in Death's domain (E.g. Albert only has a few days left in Soul Music and uses up some of that when he goes looking for Death). In 'Hogfather' Death says that the Hogfather works outside time, "How else could he visit all those houses in one night?" and I'm sure that somewhere in the Discworld novels it says that Death can be in many places at once, so he too must work outside time. I assume something similar is true for (
Time, the anthropomorphic personification, wouldn't see time the way we do, i.e. linearly, but all at once. There are two parallels to explain what I mean: the wormhole aliens in ST
S9 and the Tralfamadorians in 'Slaughterhouse 5'. The wormhole aliens have a great deal of difficulty in grasping the concept of linear time and the Tralfamadorians see us like a stack of images at different stages in our lives all at once.
There is a Martin Amis novel, one of the inspirations for which was 'Slaughterhouse 5', where time unravels backwards, so that good and evil are exchanged (Nazi bombers swallowing up bombs to repair ruined towns and cities; bringing people out of the gas chambers and back to life; doctors making people ill). I've never read it, but it was called 'Time's Arrow: or The Nature of the Offense', apparently the original title for 'London Fields', which I have read.I don't think Death did know, rather that he inferred it. It was the Death of Rats that first senses that something is wrong and builds the complicated machine that butters toast and lets it fall onto bits of carpet. It's this demonstration that sets Death on the track of the Auditors in the first place.
Dotsie said:
But then you'd have no babies You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
!Exactly! There is a sense in which the books are really real too: because they are metaphors for our own lives. There is a depth to these books that never ceases to move me
Sorry about the Quoth/Binky thing above Jan, I hadn't read this far when I wrote that. Great minds think alike, eh
?Not exactly, but Lu-Tse is in Ankh-Morpork when Vimes has travelled back in time in 'Night Watch', although the history monks have a temple behind the Shonky Shop, but I kind of got the impression that it was around that time, so, as Dotsie says, it can't have been that long ago (if I remember correctly, Sam got sent back about 20 years).
Tonyblack said:
Nah - my mother used to come up with that answer [Why? Because!]. It's typical mom-ese .
.
I haven't heard the latter before. As for the former, I've often wondered about this saying. I know that it expresses surprise - similar to "Knock me down with a feather", but I could never work out where it came from. I've asked around, checked references &c, including a book that came out about seven years ago in which the derivations of British sayings were given, but not this one. Can anyone explain it to me? I'm also wondering whether "If wishes were horses…" means the quite the same thing as "If ifs and buts…". And I hadn't heard of either of Dotsie's
As for my own observations:
This book has many indirect references to Taoism (or Daoism - cf Taoism - there are two latinization (or romanization) systems: the older Wade-Giles system and the modern Pinyin system. I'll be using the Wade-Giles with the Pinyin in parentheses). I'm no expert on Taoism, but nevertheless... Authorship of the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing) is attributed to Lao-Tzu (= "Old Master", also Laozi - cf Lao-Tzu). This book is "widely regarded to be the most influential Taoist text" and "a foundational scripture of central importance in Taoism". There is much academic debate as to the date and author of this book
If I had to vote for just one Discworld book, this would be it; a masterpiece
Nice points, Nick and thanks for resurrecting this discussion of a book that's my second favorite DW novel (behind The Fifth Elephant).
The only point I'll quibble with is your assertion that Buddhism, Toaism and Confucianism influenced each other. This really isn't true. First, Confucius lived hundreds of years before Buddha, and his Analects had long become institutionalized in Chinese culture by the time Buddha arrived. Also Confucianism is almost diametrically opposed to Buddhism. Confucianism is all about achieving harmony in society by adhering to moral and intellectual practices that are largely anchored in hierarchical and family relationships.
Buddhism and Taoism are the opposite, focusing on the attainment of personal enlightenment through meditation and becoming one with nature and one's own spirituality, independent on society's constraints. When it first came to China, Buddhism was initially perceived as a threat to the Chinese Confucianists who ran the imperial bureaucracy, but, over time, the innate ability of the Chinese to absorb and reconcile different belief systems allowed the compatibility of all these schools of thought.
The only point I'll quibble with is your assertion that Buddhism, Toaism and Confucianism influenced each other. This really isn't true. First, Confucius lived hundreds of years before Buddha, and his Analects had long become institutionalized in Chinese culture by the time Buddha arrived. Also Confucianism is almost diametrically opposed to Buddhism. Confucianism is all about achieving harmony in society by adhering to moral and intellectual practices that are largely anchored in hierarchical and family relationships.
Buddhism and Taoism are the opposite, focusing on the attainment of personal enlightenment through meditation and becoming one with nature and one's own spirituality, independent on society's constraints. When it first came to China, Buddhism was initially perceived as a threat to the Chinese Confucianists who ran the imperial bureaucracy, but, over time, the innate ability of the Chinese to absorb and reconcile different belief systems allowed the compatibility of all these schools of thought.
Re: Late entry
I also believe he has said himself that he doesn't like football.
...but Quoth doesn't live with Death, does he?. I thought he lived on a skull in a wizard's house.
I do like Pooh's theory, it's very neat and fits all the 'facts', but I agree, I think that everyone's forgetting that Wen and Time were very much in love.
He likes my theory! He likes MY theory! Yippee!
I also believe he has said himself that he doesn't like football.
NickP said:
Time doesn't pass in Death's domain (E.g. Albert only has a few days left in Soul Music and uses up some of that when he goes looking for Death). In 'Hogfather' Death says that the Hogfather works outside time, "How else could he visit all those houses in one night?" and I'm sure that somewhere in the Discworld novels it says that Death can be in many places at once, so he too must work outside time. I assume something similar is true for (
) Quoth ,as he's the Death of Rats's Binky (in case you didn't know, '"Nevermore," quoth the raven' is a repeating line from Edgar Allan Poe's poem 'The Raven').
NickP said:
Dotsie said:
But then you'd have no babies You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
You need to start thinking like a woman in love here
Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism
Maybe I shouldn't have said 'greatly', but I take your point
. Taoism and Confucianism are also at odds with one another - some scholars believe that the Tao Te Ching was a repudiation of Confucianism - but I would say that the three do bear a resemblance to each other: Taoism and Buddhism in their emphasis on the spiritual as opposed to the material; Taoism and Confucianism in their emphasis on 'right' and moral behaviour; and all three are concerned with achieving harmony of one sort or another.
As for dates, I thought they were contemporaries. According to Wikipedia, Buddah lived c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE and Confucius 551 BCE to 479 BCE. Also, one of the premises of 'Creation' by Gore Vidal (an amazing Novel - highly recommended), which was set around 500 BCE, was that the protagonist met both Buddha and Confucius. I know the book is fiction (it is narrated from the point of view of Zoroaster's grandson, a diplomat to three of the great Persian emperors, who travelled to Greece, India and 'Cathay' (as he calls China) in the course of his duties and meets many famous historical figures), but I'm sure he got his facts right. Anyway, I'm no expert and I'm probably getting in beyond my depth.
Thanks for the comments. As there hadn't been any for almost a year I wasn't sure they'd be read
!
Maybe I shouldn't have said 'greatly', but I take your point
As for dates, I thought they were contemporaries. According to Wikipedia, Buddah lived c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE and Confucius 551 BCE to 479 BCE. Also, one of the premises of 'Creation' by Gore Vidal (an amazing Novel - highly recommended), which was set around 500 BCE, was that the protagonist met both Buddha and Confucius. I know the book is fiction (it is narrated from the point of view of Zoroaster's grandson, a diplomat to three of the great Persian emperors, who travelled to Greece, India and 'Cathay' (as he calls China) in the course of his duties and meets many famous historical figures), but I'm sure he got his facts right. Anyway, I'm no expert and I'm probably getting in beyond my depth.
Thanks for the comments. As there hadn't been any for almost a year I wasn't sure they'd be read
Re: Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism
Whoops! You're right. My high school Chinese history class was wrong..or I was asleep during class that day. . Although some sources say that Buddha actually was born and lived entirely in the 5th century BCE, which would've given Confucy a 50 year head start.
In any case, it's highly doubtful that Buddha ever visited or taught in China, and Buddhism didn't catch hold there for awhile, so Confucianism did have a pretty good head start.
Whoops! You're right. My high school Chinese history class was wrong..or I was asleep during class that day.
. Although some sources say that Buddha actually was born and lived entirely in the 5th century BCE, which would've given Confucy a 50 year head start. In any case, it's highly doubtful that Buddha ever visited or taught in China, and Buddhism didn't catch hold there for awhile, so Confucianism did have a pretty good head start.
i just read this book for the first time.
One thing that struck me was the 'death by chocolate' of the auditors. it reminds me of something that happens with babies when they taste sugar for the first time, they go into a trance like state, due to the overwhelming sensation of tasting sugar, especially babies that have been exclusively breastfed. im a nurse and we use sucrose on some young babies while putting in drips and things like that because they don't feel the pain, they are 'tripping out' on sugar!
One thing that struck me was the 'death by chocolate' of the auditors. it reminds me of something that happens with babies when they taste sugar for the first time, they go into a trance like state, due to the overwhelming sensation of tasting sugar, especially babies that have been exclusively breastfed. im a nurse and we use sucrose on some young babies while putting in drips and things like that because they don't feel the pain, they are 'tripping out' on sugar!
I didn't like Thief Of Time that much: it's got lots of fun ideas and some of the characters are fun to read, but I just find everyone in this book monologues rather than having actual conversations. Susan and Lu Tze especially seem to spend most of their time lecturing people. I know that's kind of Susuan's personality (she IS a teacher) but it just got wearing how bloody right she was about everything here.. Most of the heros come across as unbearably smug.
At least that's what I think.
At least that's what I think.
Lu Tze is a teacher, too, has been for hundreds of years, and he's having to deal with a very arrogant student.
Almost everyone in the book is a god or an anthropomorphic personification or an auditor, or a human with a great deal of experience. There's not a lot of room for false humility, particularly in emergency conditions.
Almost everyone in the book is a god or an anthropomorphic personification or an auditor, or a human with a great deal of experience. There's not a lot of room for false humility, particularly in emergency conditions.
I can see why each character would carry on in the way that they do. It's just a bit of a turn-off for me: Susand and Lu Tze going around espousing endless cleverness gets slightly tiresome for me, and stops the book from being amongst my preferred DW books. There's plenty I like though - the Auditor-confusing sings are great.
I think Susan is a well observed character. Yes she thinks she knows everything and yes, she thinks she knows best and is in control - but the reality in the books is that her overconfidence often lets her down. She has a lot of weaknesses that she tries to hide under a facade of confidence, but that doesn't always work. I've known lots of Susan-like people.
