SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[Dotsie]

The thing about dwarfs and gender on discworld is that, and sorry to have to say this, one man made it all up. From scratch. Sometimes he changes his mind about what he's written before. Sometimes he even forgets (his words, not mine). So if he says that Vimes can tell the difference without the aid of make up, then I completely believe that he can.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

That's very true - if you really get into Tolkien there holes and complete U-turns all over. Sometimes orcs are twisted elves and the next they're botched copies of the first men - or demons like elves...

It's hard work being a creator!

 

[One Man Bucket]

He's been fairly consistent so I think I can forgive him a few errors but I find it more intellectually stimulating to find explanations for supposed errors than I do shrugging my shoulders and moving on.

There's always the trousers of time or quantum.

 

[raisindot]

Ummm, you lost me here. What is the error or inconsistency Pterry made regarding Vimes's ability to identify the gender of dwarfs? There are a lot of the things the "later" Vimes can do that the "earlier" Vimes never could. That's character development. Knowing how to identify dwarf gender is one aspect of his development.

J-I-B

 

[The Mad Collector]

I think one point that is missed here is that not only is Vimes getting better at identification but that the dwarfs are helping. Terry makes the point that in Ankh Morpork at least, that many dwarfs are finding that their 'sons' are dabbling in make-up and heeled boots, maybe styling their beards differently. Vimes is getting better at picking up subtle clues but the clues are also getting less subtle. This does not mean he could have told the difference between old style (pre Cheery Littlebottoms one dwarf revolution) dwarfs just that now there are often noticable differences.

 

[One Man Bucket]

Ummm, you lost me here. What is the error or inconsistency Pterry made regarding Vimes's ability to identify the gender of dwarfs? There are a lot of the things the "later" Vimes can do that the "earlier" Vimes never could. That's character development. Knowing how to identify dwarf gender is one aspect of his development.

J-I-B

The error is that ascertaining another dwarfs gender requires dwarfs to exercise their best detective skills, so the implication is that Vimes is even better at ascertaining dwarf gender than dwarfs. In addition, the sort of dwarfs working at a place that would refuse a police officer access because she's openly female would consider signs of femininity on their guards grounds for dismissal. Thus, Vimes is even better at ascertaining dwarf gender than dwarfs who make a point of slamming any visible example of femininity.

@The Mad Collector

See above for reasons why the Grags are unlikely to hire and retain all but the old style dwarfs

Alright, I've figured out an explanation that satisfies me. The guards were hired by Helmclever without any of the Grags inspecting them. Helmclever wasn't the hardliner that the Grags were. As such he might hire a dwarf displaying subtle signs of femininity.

 

[poohcarrot]

I agree with you OMB. Vimes being able to tell a dwarf's gender when other dwarfs couldn't is silly!

 

[Anilori]

Traditional dwarfs can't tell each other's gender, but if I remember well, the clues Vimes picks up are related to the lady dwarfs timidly adopting markers of human feminity (eyelashes etc.), as the Mad Collector said?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Blokes of any species are terrible at picking up on subliminal gender signalling so what's the problem.

Sometimes you don't see the detail from the inside because they're always there and lose significance. The expressions familiarity breeds contempt and can't see the wood for the trees also feeds into the fact that in a purely dwarfish community inertia will set in and so neither gender will notice any differences until things descend or perhaps deepen (relatively) and beards get thicker or softer... :twisted:

Actually we don't talk about it much on this board but The Truth is a bit of watershed for Dwarf gender politics - doesn't Gunnilla (who's the one who's leading the movable type revolution) announce her engagement plans with Bodoni to William at one point? The dwarf names are all font-based and so you just don't twig that she's a girl at all until that point - they all just get on with their work quite happily without making any gender distinctions whilst they're 'on the job'

 

[pip]

There could be an interesting split setup in dwarf society.
Gender is not defined specifically by biological attributes according to most anthhropologists and societies do not always limit themselves to two genders so currently dwarf society can be split into three genders -
Male standard , female standard and now the new female.
The potential splits beyond this could be quiet fun
Will we suddenly get a shift in the opposite direction of Ultra masculine Dwarfs. or male dwarfs also adopting female dress.
The possibilities are endless.

 

[raisindot]

Traditional dwarfs can't tell each other's gender, but if I remember well, the clues Vimes picks up are related to the lady dwarfs timidly adopting markers of human feminity (eyelashes etc.), as the Mad Collector said?

Yes, this makes sense. A dwarf who truly wanted to hide her gender wouldn't be able to be 'detected' by Vimes. But those who were using very subtle signs--like Cheery probably did in Feet of Clay, would be 'detectable' by Vimes because he knew, through Cheery and some of the other female dwarfs in the Watch (we know there are some, because they all go ga-ga over Young Sam when he's brought to the station), what to look for.

Dwarfs, on the other hand, because they generally don't care about gender, don't go out of their way to try to distinguish between males and females, and, therefore wouldn't be looking for the "subtle" feminizing signs that Vimes can detect.

[SPOILER AHEAD]

Don't think this is consistent? Well think of Jackrom in Monstrous Regiment. The sargeant knows right from the beginning that all of the recruits are females, because the sarge has this ability. Yet, none of the recruits knows the others are female under they start admitting it to each other or they catch them in obvious acts. An 'outsider' can often 'detect' tells that those in a group can't.

If you don't agree with this, go a poker room some time and watch a table without playing. With enough observation and hands, you'll be able to tell, through their various facial tics, posture, and gestures, when certain players are holding strong or weak hands. This is something that is extremely difficult for someone actually playing the game to do and those who can do it, as long as they have sound skills, generally end up winning more often.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

Actually we don't talk about it much on this board but The Truth is a bit of watershed for Dwarf gender politics - doesn't Gunnilla (who's the one who's leading the movable type revolution) announce her engagement plans with Bodoni to William at one point? The dwarf names are all font-based and so you just don't twig that she's a girl at all until that point - they all just get on with their work quite happily without making any gender distinctions whilst they're 'on the job'

Did Gunnilla actually come out and say that he/she was female? I only recall that he/she said that she and Bodoni were saving together to buy a mine and to buy each other off their parents, but unless I totally missed this, it was never made clear which one was the male and which was the female. Which, if this is the case, is what's really nice about this whole bit.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Could have been Boddony who was the female (well one of them had to be) but Gunilla's a girl's name so I'm assuming it's her. The buying each other thing was couched in terms of it being a marriage settlement but it was never absolutely stated who the bride was.

I was slightly wrong about the typeface thing but the dwarf names are print related -

Gunilla Goodmountain (translates from Gutenberg) Caslong/Caslon and Boddony/Bodoni (both fonts) etc

 

[poohcarrot]

They could have both been female or both male too.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Steady on there! It's taken long enough to let the girlies wear a bit of lippy without causing apoplexy to every passing grag without bringing civil partnerships into the equation!

Although I suppose Pepe and Madam Sharn could be pushing the envelope there perhaps? :twisted:

 

[pip]

if watching british politics has taught me anything its that when conservatives cut loose they go crazy and no species is more conservative to begin with than the dwarfs

 

[raisindot]

if watching british politics has taught me anything its that when conservatives cut loose they go crazy and no species is more conservative to begin with than the dwarfs

Well, that makes sense because most politicians are mental midgets anyway.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

Steady on there! It's taken long enough to let the girlies wear a bit of lippy without causing apoplexy to every passing grag without bringing civil partnerships into the equation!

Of all the DW races, dwarfs would probably be the most 'accepting' of same-sex unions--at least of males. After all, dwarfs don't even think about marriage until they have a desire to procreate, and this may not be a couple hundred years. Since the dwarfs are a male dominated society, it wouldn't seem unnatural for two male dwarfs to hook up, in the same way that near-marriage-like-same-sex relationships were considered commonplance in ancient Greece and Sparta. The only thing unnatural about such a union (for the dwarfs at least) would be that it was done for love, rather than for creating the next generation. Since anti-same-sex attitudes are driven solely by religious intolerance, and since there doesn't seem to be evidence that Tak "wroten down" laws prohibiting it (there might be; it's just something we haven't seen yet), of all the races, dwarfs would be the most likely to accept it. I mean, what you do thing those grags are doing down in the little caves all day long? Lighting candles?

If we want to be purely speculative, it's quite possible that Carrot's adoptive parents were male. They didn't seem to have other children, and why would they adopt a human unless they couldn't conceive their own?

Now, if two openly FEMALE dwarfs tried to get married, that would start a civil war.



J-I-B

 

[ghostsecurity28]

If we want to be purely speculative, it's quite possible that Carrot's adoptive parents were male. They didn't seem to have other children, and why would they adopt a human unless they couldn't conceive their own?

Now, if two openly FEMALE dwarfs tried to get married, that would start a civil war.



J-I-B

Now carrots adoptive parents could of been both male but chances would be very slim I cant see a couple of butch male dwarfs walking in the woods hunting wood rats and see a human child crying would want to take the baby home, general opinion it would of had to been a female dwarf who found Carrot as in thud with the dwarfs cooing over little sam

"It was a brave female dwarf that advertised the fact, in a society where the wearing of even a decent ,floor-length, leather and chainmail dress instead of leggings positioned you ,on the moral map on the far side of Tawnee and her hard-working co-workers at the pink pussycat club. but introduce a gurgling kid into the room and you could spot them instantly, for all there fearsome clang and beards you could lose a rat in."

plus I really cant see a male dwarf being called mum as if I remember he always writes to his mum and dad ?

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Most dwarfs were still referred to as 'he' as well, even when they were getting married. It was generally assumed that somewhere under all that chain mail one of them was female and that both of them knew which one this was. But the whole subject of sex was one that traditionally minded dwarfs did not discuss, perhaps out of modesty, possibly because it didn't interest them very much and certainly because they took the view that what two dwarfs decided to do together was entirely their own business.

(my emphasis)

I think that says fairly clearly that as long as its kept quiet dwarfish society has no objection to same sex pairings.

The dwarfish obsession is with conformity and traditional dwarfish society has only one outward expression of gender. The problem they have is not with females doing or not doing any role in society but with them declaring they are female.