SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[One Man Bucket]

As an addition to what Doughnut Jimmy said dwarfs problem with openly female dwarfs is not that they're being female but that they're not being "proper" dwarfs. They'd likely have an equally strong reaction if dwarfs started going around clean shaven. Dwarfs are like the Pharisees, Jesus reprimanded, concerned about outward displays of piety whilst inside they're as worldly as anyone else. With dwarfs you get people like Thundergust who make perfume and makeup whilst dressing in some fearsome clang.

 

[Maeve]

plus I really cant see a male dwarf being called mum as if I remember he always writes to his mum and dad ?

Sorry if this isn't quite on topic but I think the reason he does that is because GG was written before the idea of female dwarves occured to Terry- like at the beginning of GG Carrot refers to Minty as a she and such, then in a later book he acts shocked that anyone would do that... it's just kinda an inconsistancy that comes from the development of the series I guess.
Heh heh this is a really stupid offtopic point to make, sorry!

 

[Dotsie]

No, it's right on topic! Tony won't know what to make of that (actually he doesn't have a problem at all unless we're supposed to be discussing a different book)

 

[Maeve]

Oh good I'm so mod-phobic, I don't want to make them mad

 

[pip]

Tony is a water downed form of evil . its ok

 

[raisindot]

Oh good I'm so mod-phobic, I don't want to make them mad

Don't worry. Tony is the mellowest mod in the multiverse.



J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

8) It's groovy man!

 

[One Man Bucket]

Sorry if this isn't quite on topic but I think the reason he does that is because GG was written before the idea of female dwarves occured to Terry- like at the beginning of GG Carrot refers to Minty as a she and such, then in a later book he acts shocked that anyone would do that... it's just kinda an inconsistancy that comes from the development of the series I guess.
Heh heh this is a really stupid offtopic point to make, sorry!

It's possible that Carrot and Minty's relationship had reached a point where Carrot had figured out her gender.

 

[Dotsie]

Well it's possible, but I don't think so, as Carrot is a bit naive with women - it seems more like one of those "slips" you get when you say that no-one can tell the difference between dwarf genders, but as another example there is a "Mrs" waiting at home for the dwarf killed by a gonne. How does Vimes know that the dwarf killed was in fact male, at the one at home wasn't actually the husband? Because it doesn't really matter if you've forgotten what you wrote earlier will be taken very seriously by your fans!

Of course, Minty might be male, which would explain why his parents were expecially against Carrot (the King's son, after all).

 

[One Man Bucket]

I reckon that was Vimes demonstrating his ignorance of dwarfs and looking at them from a human perspective.

I reckon the case with Minty was that she was either too young by dwarf standards since at the time Carrot got interested in girls his age group among the dwarfs would still be prepubescent . Alternatively she was that much older than him that Mr/King Ironfounderson thought it would be awkward.

 

[Beyond Birthday]

I might as well throw my two-cents in.

First I'll get the complaining part out of the way: The Sally and Angua bar scene dragged and didn't really have any conclusion. It just sort of petered off. While I think that it's interesting that Carrot's over-dedication to his job may end up ruining his relationship with Angua I get the feeling that this'll never be brought up again. Also, Sally is annoying. Yes, I realize that she's annoying because she spends most of the book hanging out with a werewolf but maybe it would've been a good idea to see more of how she acts without Angua around. I don't think this will happen, too, because Pratchett seems to be going for a "Hyper Police" thing with the two.

With that said, I really like this book. I like how awesome Vimes is throughout, I like Angua, I like Detritus and I like Carrot (even though he's barely in it). I still say this book should have been called Vimes is an Awesome Bad***.

I'd say this book is more about racism in general but there is some commentary on religion here and there (most of which I didn't care about). I don't really think religion as a whole is portrayed as good or evil here. I mean, yeah, we have a group of dwarves willing to destroy history for the sake of not liking it but it's also balanced out by Mr. Hand-For-An-Axe (yeah...I forgot his name since I read it). If this is an anti-religion book then...I'm okay with that. At the end of the day there are bad things to be pointed out about almost anything, so why not? At least it can still be enjoyed for its story and characters if you don't like the message.

As for the lack of jokes everyone keeps talking about I honestly didn't mind.

 

[BaldFriede]

Like Jean I like the Angua-Sally relationship, and I think there may be cooking something. Perhaps it is just because I am a lesbian. I definitely hope to see more of Sally. And, contrary to what some of the others said, I like Sally.
Interestingly Prachett, who has tackled so many topics, has completely left out homosexuality in his books. Maybe he fears some people might be repelled by the issue.

 

[pip]

Like Jean I like the Angua-Sally relationship, and I think there may be cooking something. Perhaps it is just because I am a lesbian. I definitely hope to see more of Sally. And, contrary to what some of the others said, I like Sally.
Interestingly Prachett, who has tackled so many topics, has completely left out homosexuality in his books. Maybe he fears some people might be repelled by the issue.

Have you read Unseen Academicals. Definitely more than a hint of homosexuality here.

 

[BaldFriede]

No, that one is among the dozen Discworld books we don't have in our library yet.

 

[pip]

No, that one is among the dozen Discworld books we don't have in our library yet.

Keep going then. Loads more fun to be had.

 

[One Man Bucket]

There's also two of the troops in Monstrous Regiment who were all but stated to be lesbians.

Sally is probably heterosexual based on her rather strong reaction to Carrot but she could easily be bisexual. I doubt she'd go for Angua considering she wants and knows she can't get her man. It doesn't seem like logical behaviour and the sort of thing that would have Vimes kicking her off the force for being a disruptive influence.

 

[Tonyblack]

I get the feeling from reading the books, that Terry likes writing for Angua. She's one of the few characters that he writes from their point of view - Vimes is another. The thing is, Terry saddled Angua with Carrot and as their relationship seems to be really dull, he has to get the two of them apart. After Fifth Elephant, you hardly ever see them in a scene together.

Putting Sally and Angua together, with the problems that causes for werewolves makes for an interesting story and allows Angua to develop.

I thought Cheery was something of a fifth wheel in that girls night out bit. Which was a shame as I like Cheery.

One thing I'd like to add is that all the Watch books seem to have a theme that it doesn't matter what your species is, if you are in the Watch, then you are a copper, first and foremost.

Angua and Sally start off as natural enemies - werewolf and vampire, but eventually treat each other with respect as fellow coppers. If you remember in Feet of Clay, Cheery had a thing about werewolves as well.

 

[One Man Bucket]

With regards Cheery I reckon the "feminist" movement has grown beyond her and she's now more spectator/participant than innovator like she once was. A suggestion of where to go with her story wise would be for her to get into a relationship and have us see dwarfish courtship in which they no longer have the added hurdle of figuring out each others genders. Ruby and Detritus was a good example of troll courtship in a modern setting so let's have one for dwarfs using Cheery

Terry also writes from Nobbs and Colons point of view and whenever we're among more secondary watchmen we get their points of view as well. I distinctly recall getting Buggy, Dorfl, Visit and Reg Shoe's point of views at some point. He can't get into Carrot's head because that would shatter his mystique but he's certainly gotten into every coppers head though he defaults to Vimes.

 

[BaldFriede]

There's also two of the troops in Monstrous Regiment who were all but stated to be lesbians.

Sally is probably heterosexual based on her rather strong reaction to Carrot but she could easily be bisexual. I doubt she'd go for Angua considering she wants and knows she can't get her man. It doesn't seem like logical behaviour and the sort of thing that would have Vimes kicking her off the force for being a disruptive influence.

Ah, but Sally's thinking may be "Get Angua into bed first and via her Carrot too".

 

[Dotsie]

But you're basing this on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Maybe she fancies Cheery.