SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[TheTurtleMoves]

I found that scene in the book amusing rather than reprihensible I must admit. I had never looked at it from that point of view before. I've liked seeing Vimes grow into a dedicated man to his job and family and so on but he'll always have a bit of tarnish on him which is why I like him. I suppose the scene in that book illustrates that nicely. He's got good intentions, he just arrives via a different route to everyone else.

I liked Thud very much. I liked its general message of hating/fighting someone else because they are different is just daft. I don't think the girls night out bit took anything away from it and I enjoyed reading a new side to some off duty coppers. I did find Angua to be more acerbic but I mostly put that down to the fact that she's been in the AMCW for quite a while now and seeing the ar*e end of humanity for any stretch of time is bound to turn you a little cynical and bitter.

 

[Teppic]

"personal isn't the same as important"

Isn't it weird that a man who uttered these words in an earlier book when he believed his girlfirend to be murdered would be willing to do that for Vimes though? You have to wonder about Carrot's philosphy at times.

And of course, this episode also shows the difference between Vimes and Vetinari. The Patrician is loyal to "the City" as an idea and that idea must keep running smoothly, like clockwork at all times - that's often mentioned as Vetinari's way. Vimes is loyal - despite his cynicism and dislike of most - to the people within the city, particularly the most vulnerable. And whilst in the past that has included the families in the slums and the widows of former Watchmen, it now also includes Young Sam. 'Personal', it seems, is increasingly the same as 'important' for Vimes.

But whilst he changes as a father, this also confirms everything we know about Vimes in many ways, particularly his bloody mindedness and his fear of what will happen if his self-discipline goes awry. The same self-discipline which forces him to keep a bottle of whisky in his desk drawer to prove he doesn't need it in earlier books, his 'internal policeman', manifests itself again and again in Thud! He is more scared of himelf than he is of anyone else, and the self-imposed self-discipline which he uses to counter this fear causes some collatoral damage - such as the streets being closed.

But, thankfully, it's the same fear and same self-discipline which stops him becoming consumed by the dark foces at the end of the book. I believe it's because of his new focus, his son, that he's able to overcome these dark forces which would otherwise have consumed him. Contrast the end of Thud with his handling of the gonne in Men at Arms, when he was only saved from himself by Carrot. The 'internal policeman' has become stronger since his son was born I think; and that has good and bad results both for himself and the city which he serves.

 

[Pearwood]

So, in summary: Vimes is okay with using the Watch to help him get home, but diverting traffic for this purpose goes beyond his sense of what's right and wrong. Never mind that he is diverting coppers from solving crimes, being on patrol and is using both public and private resource for his own benefit. The only part he mildly objects to is what he sees as Carrot 'going too far.' But this almost seems more of astonishment on the part of Vimes that Carrot would have the audacity to do such a thing, rather than a moral objection.

Ah, that makes sense. I definitely had a memory of Vimes abusing his power, but couldn't remember exactly what he did. My main problem with Vimes' action isn't that they're dishonest (I've never considered him 100% honest), it's that he's always acted like an everyman and here he was using his high standing in the city to convenience himself and thereby disconvenience the common folk of Ankh Morpork. By acting like he's entitled to more than others he's no better than the Patrician.

 

[raisindot]

Ah, that makes sense. I definitely had a memory of Vimes abusing his power, but couldn't remember exactly what he did. My main problem with Vimes' action isn't that they're dishonest (I've never considered him 100% honest), it's that he's always acted like an everyman and here he was using his high standing in the city to convenience himself and thereby disconvenience the common folk of Ankh Morpork. By acting like he's entitled to more than others he's no better than the Patrician.

I think you've hit it on the nail here. In past books, Vimes used his high standing and authority to co-opt public and private resources for the purposes of solving (or preventing) a crime or upholding the Law. What he does in Thud is the first time he's used this authority solely for his own benefit. It's not his finest moment, but it's one Pterry has purposely put in to add a new layer of complexity and moral ambiguity to Vimes' character.

 

[poohcarrot]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

The quote is in the first part of Men At Arms. 8)

 

[raisindot]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

The quote is in the first part of Men At Arms. 8)

Holy poo! It took nearly a year to answer that question?

Thus answered, I retract my original assertion above.

 

[One Man Bucket]

Whether this is discussion worthy I know not but it seemed interesting. In the things Tak wrote we learn that there are 3 sentient races native to the Disc* and I was wondering if this is actually the case or simply dwarf belief. The undead can pretty much be considered humans with a condition. Gnomes, Picties and elves are immigrants from parasitic dimensions and things like Dryads are the result of magical mutation caused by the Mage Wars. It seems to me that the things Tak wrote can thus be considered true in at least that respect.

* humans, dwarves and trolls

 

[Tonyblack]

I think it's a bit like our three main religions who all believe in the same god and ignore everyone else.

 

[One Man Bucket]

Well you have to admit the existence of the other races can be explained away whereas it's a lot harder for the various religions to explain away those things they disagree with

 

[raisindot]

Whether this is discussion worthy I know not but it seemed interesting. In the things Tak wrote we learn that there are 3 sentient races native to the Disc* and I was wondering if this is actually the case or simply dwarf belief. The undead can pretty much be considered humans with a condition. Gnomes, Picties and elves are immigrants from parasitic dimensions and things like Dryads are the result of magical mutation caused by the Mage Wars. It seems to me that the things Tak wrote can thus be considered true in at least that respect.

It reflects Dwarfish belief only, and their own assessment of which beings are truly 'sentient.' Not only because there are other sentient races (goblins, banshees, gargoyles, gnolls, gnomes (the ones that aren't picties), but because there are actually real gods on the DW. Unless Tak created those other gods, or those other gods deserve no credit for creating sentient beings, the dwarves' creation mythology is incompatible with DW reality.

 

[cabbagehead]

I'm pretty sure none of the Discworld gods created sentient beings. At least those gods humans believe in were to a large extent created by humans and their belief in those gods. I'm not sure how the gods that trolls worship (a few were mentioned in Moving Pictures) work.

Should Tak be on Dunmanifestin? Was he originally a small god that acquired his personality through dwarf beliefs? Or is the fact that the dwarfs see him as an absentee creator mean he couldn't have formed the way human-worshipped gods form?

 

[Oberon]

Should Tak be on Dunmanifestin? Was he originally a small god that acquired his personality through dwarf beliefs? Or is the fact that the dwarfs see him as an absentee creator mean he couldn't have formed the way human-worshipped gods form?

As far as I understand it the dwarves have no religion. They believe that Tak created the world but they don't worship him.

 

[cabbagehead]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

 

[Tonyblack]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

Just about everyone believes in Luck and Fate even if they don't admit to it. It's the reason they are such powerful deities. So yes, that's probably why they are both on Dunmanifestin.

I'm reading Folklore of Discworld at the moment and this is something that's covered in there. I think there's a whole thing about Tak, but haven't got that far.

 

[Oberon]

So? The Gamblers Guild doesn't worship The Lady (nobody does, at least not for long), but they and others believe in her, which is why she exists and lives on Dunmanifestin.

Good point. This from Discworld Wiki:

"Tak wrote the world, according to the dwarfs, but unlike most gods he does not require that the dwarfs think of him, merely that they do think. This makes him exceptional amongst Discworld gods who, without belief, would fade away to nothing more than small gods, eternally blown by the winds of mischance and always lamenting their loss of status and godhood".

 

[raisindot]

The dwarves think of Tak the way you or I might think of an architect or even a writer. They are convinced that Tak is a real entity who did a real act of creation, the way we might say that Frank Lloyd Wright designed a certain building or a real man named Shakespeare wrote all of this plays. In our world, we don't necessarily have documentation of these 'facts'--i.e., manuscripts, building plans, receipts, etc.--but we accept this version of the truth because it makes logical sense and in most cases no one has presented a compelling, contrary argument based on actual evidence.

Since the dwarves are a people of words, and since someone once wrote the words that appear in the Book of Tak, the dwarves take it for granted that the story must be true (although later generations of dwarves do fight over the exact words themselves). It has nothing to do with religion, any more than one would worship Jonas Salk for creating a polio vaccine.

 

[Bron H]

I loved this book, it is my fave of terry's books. (So far, i havn't read "I shall wear midnight" or "Snuff" yet and i might prefer them)
I know it doesn't have as many laughes as many of his books, but it had a great story line and i was hooked since i first picked it up.
One thing i don't overly like is the relationship between Angua and the new vamire (forgoten her name), but i definatley don't think it brings the quality of the whole book down at all.
I have loved all the watch books i'v read and as i said this one is right up the top. I rate it a 18/20 (extremely good).

 

[cabbagehead]

I was going over the arguments about whether or not dwarfs had a religion. I must say that as a person who was raised a secular Jew it is obvious that dwarfs aren't merely religious but specifically Jewish. Yes, even their belief in a creator that wrote the laws and created them (and other races) and left is similar to a common Jewish belief (except the Jewish deity stuck around for a while before leaving, or going into hiding). Specifically, Orthodox Jews believe God gave the Law on Sinai, together with rules by which said law is to be interpreted, and left the interpretation to the rabbis of each generation. Once God attempted to interfere in an argument between factions of rabbis, but the leader of the majority quoted Deuteronomy 30:12 and Exodus 23:2 as proof that a) God had no standing and b) interpretation followed majority rule. Since then God has been silent. As for prayer - while Jews do pray to God, they do so out of obligation. It is yet a rule to obey (and fulfilling an obligation is considered a higher form of religious expression than anything done voluntarily). Prayer is very structured, it isn't a way for individuals to ask for personal intervention. Also, Jews are supposed to obey the religious laws because they are. Not because God will reward them if they do or punish them otherwise but because obeying the laws is the purpose of their life. And yes, the laws cover everything from the correct time and manner of washing hands to laws of legal arbitration. So being an Orthodox Jew is a life of obeying religious law.

The differences between dwarfs in the mines and those in in Ankh Morpork are very much like the differences between Jews in the east-European stetls (regardless of whether they were Hasidic or Misnagedic) and those that moved to cities in western Europe or the US - they adapted to their new cultural environment but retained a core of customs - not all necessarily religious in origin, but all considered reminders of who they were and where they came from.

The wars between the dwarf factions about using the mine-damp detecting lamp have parallels in 18-19th century Jewish history - wars between Hasidim and Misnagedim, between Hasidic factions (these led to the handing of rabbis to the Tsarist police) and conflicts related to the influence of the Jewish Enlightenment movement. And Grag Bashfulson is definitely a Reform rabbi - he doesn't need to live in a mine to have Deep thoughts, indeed! A grag who doesn't cover his face - a rabbi who doesn't cover his head. The parallels are impossible to ignore.

 

[cabbagehead]

Continuing my post: Someone said the dwarfs were the Pharisees. Of course they are. Traditional Rabbinical Judaism is built on Pharisee thought. It is a religion that downplays revelation and personal experience and in its ideal form is a veneration of law that must be obeyed, ideally as a purpose of its own, regardless of reason and consequence. Christians identify with Jesus' criticism of Pharisees, but to Jews Pharisees are the ideal and Jesus' criticism makes no sense.

Also - in The Fifth Elephant, when the dwarfs in AM are carrying out the fights between their respective mines of origin - that's exactly what happens in Jewish communities whether in Jerusalem or New York.

 

[raisindot]

Cabbagehead, while as a fellow secular Jew I don't think that your statements about the beliefs of Orthodox Jews or their reasons for prayer are necessarily true (this is a whole different topic that probably isn't right to go on with here), I do agree with your assertion the the dwarf culture, starting in The Fifth Elephant, are modeled after the Orthodox Jews. In fact, many years ago, I expressed this viewpoint on one of the alt.pratchett news group and Pterry himself emailed back to me saying that this hadn't really occurred to him--he was modeling them more on the orthodox sects of the monotheistic religions in general, whether they were Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, since all three religions have historically had internal fighting over the interpretation of scripture.

But I don't care what Pterry said. I still think the dwarfs are based on Jews. For one thing, dwarf bread is clearly modeled after Mandel bread, one of the hardest baked substances in the multiverse.