SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere so I'll throw it up here since it's the book in which it was introduced. The Devices do you think they improve dwarfs or lessen them. The idea that a lot of dwarf technology is reliant on something they dug up and not in the same sense as fossil fuels makes dwarfs seem more lucky than advanced
raisindot said:
For one thing, dwarf bread is clearly modeled after Mandel bread, one of the hardest baked substances in the multiverse. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardtack
I couldn't help but crack up at this.
Just finished this one. It was very good, but not but not as good as Night Watch imo.
A few observations:
A .E. Pessimal was great. I actually thought that sending him to Vimes was a typical Vetinari plan, so he would end up joining the Watch and getting Vimes to deal with some paperwork properly.
Angua was annoying, as swreader mentioned, and a bit of a bitch I thought, no pun intended. Tony, you said that you thought Terry likes writing for Angua, which I thought was funny because I got the opposite impression. Most of what we hear about her in this book is to do with the werewolf/vampire thing, and how she is pleased to hear about Carrot's heart beating faster, but this to me came across in a possessive, rather unemotional way. We don't seem to get any expression of her love for Carrot, or what really makes her tick as a person. I've always found her character to be lacking something to be honest. Maybe I missed something there, I don't know.
Also there is the bit where Angua sees Sally leave as the bats and decides not to tell Vimes, as he might just put it down to their rivalry, well this just doesn't make sense. She must know that Vimes would believe her after all this time.
Mr Shine should have made an appearance at Koom Valley, or at least met with Vimes later. He has the one very important meeting with Vimes, and then we don't see or hear from him for the rest of the book. I would have liked to have seen Cheery used more as well (is she a Sergeant by now? Surely she should be), especially as Detritus was great in this one.
And the whole Nobby/Tawnee business was just nonsense, sorry. I thought the girls' night out was a good idea in principle, but had the potential to be a lot better. And Vimes stopping the traffic to get home for 6 o'clock was a bit much for me as well.
It's starting to sound like I didn't like this one. Actually I enjoyed it very much, there is lots of action and it was very hard to put down (so I didn't, and read the last half of the book in one go), but there were just those few things that annoyed me.
A few observations:
A .E. Pessimal was great. I actually thought that sending him to Vimes was a typical Vetinari plan, so he would end up joining the Watch and getting Vimes to deal with some paperwork properly.
Angua was annoying, as swreader mentioned, and a bit of a bitch I thought, no pun intended. Tony, you said that you thought Terry likes writing for Angua, which I thought was funny because I got the opposite impression. Most of what we hear about her in this book is to do with the werewolf/vampire thing, and how she is pleased to hear about Carrot's heart beating faster, but this to me came across in a possessive, rather unemotional way. We don't seem to get any expression of her love for Carrot, or what really makes her tick as a person. I've always found her character to be lacking something to be honest. Maybe I missed something there, I don't know.
Also there is the bit where Angua sees Sally leave as the bats and decides not to tell Vimes, as he might just put it down to their rivalry, well this just doesn't make sense. She must know that Vimes would believe her after all this time.
Mr Shine should have made an appearance at Koom Valley, or at least met with Vimes later. He has the one very important meeting with Vimes, and then we don't see or hear from him for the rest of the book. I would have liked to have seen Cheery used more as well (is she a Sergeant by now? Surely she should be), especially as Detritus was great in this one.
And the whole Nobby/Tawnee business was just nonsense, sorry. I thought the girls' night out was a good idea in principle, but had the potential to be a lot better. And Vimes stopping the traffic to get home for 6 o'clock was a bit much for me as well.
It's starting to sound like I didn't like this one. Actually I enjoyed it very much, there is lots of action and it was very hard to put down (so I didn't, and read the last half of the book in one go), but there were just those few things that annoyed me.
Interesting points, Prole. I'd counter your Angua argument by saying that Angua is acting EXACTLY the way a Discworld werewolf would. They're "owned" animals, with inferiority complexes that can easily be triggered when dominated by an alpha. Here, Angua is initially "owned" by Sally, and her bitterness is one of someone who knows they're owned (both literally and folklorically) and is trying to fight against it. She's never really expressed her 'love' for Carrot in any other books, and has always viewed her relationship as being more of a 'pet' than one of equals. She is definitely not all that likeable here, but we do get more of an inner glimpse of the issues that driver her emotionally than we do in most of the other Watch books, including TFE. And it's completely understandable that Angua didn't tell Vimes about Sally's night-time battiness. What exactly was Sally doing wrong? Members of the Watch don't 'snitch' on each other just for doing sneaky things.
As far as Mr. Shine is concerned, he does show up at the end of the book, at the banquet. while they're all waiting for Vimes to arrive. It really would be overkill for him and Vimes to have another conversation. Shine knew the secret of Koom Valley; Rhys didn't (or at least he didn't have proof). Vimes needed to expose the deep downer's conspiracy and facilitate the revelation of the secret to the Dwarfs. One can assume that Shine would have been able to communicate the secret to the Trolls on his own since he was their one true king.
As far as Mr. Shine is concerned, he does show up at the end of the book, at the banquet. while they're all waiting for Vimes to arrive. It really would be overkill for him and Vimes to have another conversation. Shine knew the secret of Koom Valley; Rhys didn't (or at least he didn't have proof). Vimes needed to expose the deep downer's conspiracy and facilitate the revelation of the secret to the Dwarfs. One can assume that Shine would have been able to communicate the secret to the Trolls on his own since he was their one true king.
All good points raisindot, it occurred to me after posting that I may have been a bit harsh, but thought I would leave the post up to encourage discussion.
It seems I missed Mr Shine the second time around, I guess it must have been a fleeting mention. that's what comes of reading the whole second half of the book in one afternoon I guess.
I think it's fair to say we are not really supposed to like Angua in this book as such, as you point out as a werewolf with all the associated baggage it is natural her character should be 'edgy'. This is one reason I thought it was a shame more wasn't made of the girls' night out, it could have been a chance for us to see more of her human side, but evidently she doesn't take easily to 'fun'
I'm pretty sure she does say that Vimes might not believe her word against Sally's though, and this was her reason for not telling Vimes, but the library has the book back now so I can't check. Indeed your reason is better than hers in any case.
It also bugged me that it took several hundred pages for Vimes to find out about the stolen painting, maybe it was necessary for the way the narrative went, but didn't seem very plausible to me that Colon & Nobby wouldn't have informed him sooner. Terry used the interrupted sentence trick for this one, he does this a lot and it does get on my nerves sometimes, I think it tends to be overused - it's like a soap opera tactic.
I'm in danger of getting too negative again - I really did think this was a good book, but Night Watch was a great book.
It seems I missed Mr Shine the second time around, I guess it must have been a fleeting mention. that's what comes of reading the whole second half of the book in one afternoon I guess.
I think it's fair to say we are not really supposed to like Angua in this book as such, as you point out as a werewolf with all the associated baggage it is natural her character should be 'edgy'. This is one reason I thought it was a shame more wasn't made of the girls' night out, it could have been a chance for us to see more of her human side, but evidently she doesn't take easily to 'fun'
I'm pretty sure she does say that Vimes might not believe her word against Sally's though, and this was her reason for not telling Vimes, but the library has the book back now so I can't check. Indeed your reason is better than hers in any case.
It also bugged me that it took several hundred pages for Vimes to find out about the stolen painting, maybe it was necessary for the way the narrative went, but didn't seem very plausible to me that Colon & Nobby wouldn't have informed him sooner. Terry used the interrupted sentence trick for this one, he does this a lot and it does get on my nerves sometimes, I think it tends to be overused - it's like a soap opera tactic.
I'm in danger of getting too negative again - I really did think this was a good book, but Night Watch was a great book.
I think you're right about that. But, again, it does support that idea that Watchmen ain't snitches unless there's a good reason (i.e., they can be damn sure that the snitch will end up okay). Angua probably also thinks that if she did Vimes would chalk it up to the old "werewolf vs. vampire" thing.
Well, given all the craziness going around at the time, it makes sense that 'clueless' coppers like Fred and Nobby wouldn't have made enough of a connection between the theft of the painting and the murders to tell Vimes personally, and instead leave it on his desk as a report. We all know that Vimes is bad at paperwork. Now, one could argue that either A.E. Pessimal or Vimes' imp should have brought F&N's report to Vimes' attention, but these weren't the kinds of paperwork they were assigned to look at. Part of this is also Vimes' own fault for trying to do all his investigative work on his own without informing his officers of what to look out for. It's a fault he's always admitted. In the end, however, you're right that Pterry probably chose this approach because of narrative need. Vimes needed something to get him so upset that he'd knock the candlesticks over, and this was one of the few things that would get him that angry. I found that bit a little hard to swallow in itself.
BTW, if you do have a subscription of Audible.com and some extra cash to spend, get the audiobook version of Thud! I'd classify it along with Wee Free Men and Wee Free Men as Stephen Briggs' finest readings.
Well, given all the craziness going around at the time, it makes sense that 'clueless' coppers like Fred and Nobby wouldn't have made enough of a connection between the theft of the painting and the murders to tell Vimes personally, and instead leave it on his desk as a report. We all know that Vimes is bad at paperwork. Now, one could argue that either A.E. Pessimal or Vimes' imp should have brought F&N's report to Vimes' attention, but these weren't the kinds of paperwork they were assigned to look at. Part of this is also Vimes' own fault for trying to do all his investigative work on his own without informing his officers of what to look out for. It's a fault he's always admitted. In the end, however, you're right that Pterry probably chose this approach because of narrative need. Vimes needed something to get him so upset that he'd knock the candlesticks over, and this was one of the few things that would get him that angry. I found that bit a little hard to swallow in itself.
BTW, if you do have a subscription of Audible.com and some extra cash to spend, get the audiobook version of Thud! I'd classify it along with Wee Free Men and Wee Free Men as Stephen Briggs' finest readings.
My recollection of reading the delay in Vimes finding out about the stolen painting was that it was a bit frustrating but added to the tension. So it worked OK for me.
I was convinced Angua and Sally were going to initiate the first ever public Ankh Morpork mud wrestling session when they appeared under the floor in that nightclub... But Pterry didn't go there...
I was convinced Angua and Sally were going to initiate the first ever public Ankh Morpork mud wrestling session when they appeared under the floor in that nightclub... But Pterry didn't go there...
Re:
I actually wound up here looking for a a translation of the full phrase Bashfullsson uses during his argument with Ardent - "Ha'ak! Ga strak ja'ada!" Unfortunately I didn't find anything official. I was wondering if anyone could comment on a translation I did run across; it was on a German Wiki page for the Discworld series, and after using Google to translate it into English, the page stated the rough translation was "Deviants! Your [attitude / lifestyle] is wrong!"
Can anyone comment on the validity of the translation? It does seem to fit the tone; Ardent is a hard-core conservative dwarf who likely referred to the more liberal and progressive dwarfs (like Cheery) as "ha'ak", and condemned their attitude, so it would make sense for Bashfullsson to hurl Ardent's own insult back into his teeth.
I actually wound up here looking for a a translation of the full phrase Bashfullsson uses during his argument with Ardent - "Ha'ak! Ga strak ja'ada!" Unfortunately I didn't find anything official. I was wondering if anyone could comment on a translation I did run across; it was on a German Wiki page for the Discworld series, and after using Google to translate it into English, the page stated the rough translation was "Deviants! Your [attitude / lifestyle] is wrong!"
Can anyone comment on the validity of the translation? It does seem to fit the tone; Ardent is a hard-core conservative dwarf who likely referred to the more liberal and progressive dwarfs (like Cheery) as "ha'ak", and condemned their attitude, so it would make sense for Bashfullsson to hurl Ardent's own insult back into his teeth.
Tonyblack said:
I sometimes think Terry just does the dwarf language to see how Stephen Briggs deals with it on the audiobooks.
Penfold said:
Did she ask you if you knew her friend, (insert Christian name) Jones, who lives in Swansea?
I actually have had Americans who, on finding I was Welsh, proclaimed that they were from Wales. When I asked them what part of Wales they were from, they said they didn't know, but their surname was Jones/Evans/Davies.One guy (a museum curator, who let us into the museum for free as I was Welsh) claimed his family were from "Clan-er-cly". I eventually worked out that they were from Llanelli.
