SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Going back to the dwarfs and whether they are religious or not. It is stated that they aren't religious. They knew that Tak made them and then left. They don't pray to Tak or worship him, but does that make their belief system (because they do believe) less of a religion? 
The original dwarfs at Koom Valley as well as the trolls seemed to follow a different version of the Story of Tak - one where Tak made the trolls as well. This version seems to have been conveniently 'lost' over the millennia so that in present day DW, the dwarf spiritual leaders can condemn the trolls as 'nothing'.
The reason for fighting each other and for thousands of years of hatred is based on a lie - a deliberate misinterpretation of the species' Creation Myth. It's going to take them a long time to change the way they think - but the incontrovertible Truth in the caverns is going to make it hard for doubters to question.
Yet with all the scientific evidence we have for evolution there are still people who refuse to believe it. What's it going to take?
The original dwarfs at Koom Valley as well as the trolls seemed to follow a different version of the Story of Tak - one where Tak made the trolls as well. This version seems to have been conveniently 'lost' over the millennia so that in present day DW, the dwarf spiritual leaders can condemn the trolls as 'nothing'.
The reason for fighting each other and for thousands of years of hatred is based on a lie - a deliberate misinterpretation of the species' Creation Myth. It's going to take them a long time to change the way they think - but the incontrovertible Truth in the caverns is going to make it hard for doubters to question.
Yet with all the scientific evidence we have for evolution there are still people who refuse to believe it. What's it going to take?
wow, I never have that kind of thoughts while reading TP's books, about Koom Valley I only thought it was a nice parody for all the hate in the world, where people hate each other because they are different, or because it has always be like that even if they can't even say why, and how stupid all that is while it would be so much easier and nicer to get along or simply let live in peace... never found myself thinking all that stuff...
Anyway agree as always with anyone saying how Terry is great
I loved all about this book, Mr Diamond, Detritus, Angua/Sally because Angua needed another girl to talk to other than Cheery (one more I mean, Cheery is lovely), all but the Tawnee thing because I couldn't believe Ankh-Morpork have such strange kind of men, never asking her out
Anyway agree as always with anyone saying how Terry is great
I loved all about this book, Mr Diamond, Detritus, Angua/Sally because Angua needed another girl to talk to other than Cheery (one more I mean, Cheery is lovely), all but the Tawnee thing because I couldn't believe Ankh-Morpork have such strange kind of men, never asking her out
CrysaniaMajere said:
wow, I never have that kind of thoughts while reading TP's books, about Koom Valley I only thought it was a nice parody for all the hate in the world, where people hate each other because they are different, or because it has always be like that even if they can't even say why, and how stupid all that is while it would be so much easier and nicer to get along or simply let live in peace... never found myself thinking all that stuff...
But the fact remains that a huge number of wars are fought for "religious" reasons. And just because the Dwarfs say they are not religious doesn't keep Sam (and the rest of us) from thinking it certainly sounds like religion. For example, Hamcrusher's speech in which he preaches extermination of all Trolls as "an act of charity" is a kind of "sermon. But not all rocks are trolls, and the dwarfs seem to see them that way. And a sentient being (even if a rock) objects to being mined. I suspect the "stealing" that Hamcrusher refers to is the refusal of Trolls to allow themselves to be mined/attacked by the dwarfs. And the Dwarfs creation myth certainly echoes (somewhat distortedly) the 1st Chapter of Genesis--(the one without Adam and Eve). I think that Terry is making the Dwarf/Troll relation symbolized by Koom Valley applicable to all the senseless wars (like Northern Ireland) or terrorist activity in the name of religion which have existed for so long in our round world.
I found Angua very annoying in this book. Did anyone else? She has been acting (as Sally points out) like a dog with a master. Granted, in some ways a werewolf is, I suppose, a kind of dog. But in the other books Angua (and Terry) make more of a contrast between dogs and wolves. I suppose it's possible to see the werewolf/vampire thing as an old enmity from Uberwald's past that still colors the way they react to some extent. But I think that Jan and others are right (me too) in saying that "the girls night out" and the relations between Anuga and Sally are meant to be if not comic, at least lighter relief. I just think that whole thing drags and isn't that funny. And Colon and Nobby have become pretty much a one joke standard. But at least they don't feature as much here as in 5th Elephant. I've always pictured "Tawnee" as a dumb blonde stereotype, although I don't think her coloring is mentioned. On another board, people got upset that the girls were breaking up Nobby's romance--which clearly isn't the case. But the dumb blonde who can't cook is just too stereotypical for my taste.
One of the "comic" people that I do think works brilliantly is A.E. Pessimal--and his transformation, which absolutely confounds Vetinari and turns his deliberate "joke" of foisting him on Sam Vimes completely around.
Tonyblack said:
Sjoerd3000 said:
Maybe because of Godwin's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%s_law
(stupid link won't work properly
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I've repaired the links by substituting a % for the apostrophe.
I think the Angua/Sally thing is their own, personalized treatment of the overall theme of racial one-upmanship in the book. If the coverup of the truth of Koom Valley is a larger scale expression of the dwarves' desire to continue to perpetuate ages-old speciest stereotypes, the Angua/Sally thing represents their own struggles (more Angua's really) to overcome their own traditional relationship, where the werevolves are the trolls to the vampires' dwarves.
100% on little A.E. Pessimal. Not only is his transformation a fulfillment of the "Walter Mitty" fantasy that nearly all weak, little bureaucrats have about themselves, but also a tribute to Vimes' new-found ability to use 'Vetinarian' techniques to manipulate people to accomplish his goals without even realizing that they're are being played with. His little scene with Vimes where he gets his wish to join the Watch is one of the many little treasure in the books.
J-I-B
100% on little A.E. Pessimal. Not only is his transformation a fulfillment of the "Walter Mitty" fantasy that nearly all weak, little bureaucrats have about themselves, but also a tribute to Vimes' new-found ability to use 'Vetinarian' techniques to manipulate people to accomplish his goals without even realizing that they're are being played with. His little scene with Vimes where he gets his wish to join the Watch is one of the many little treasure in the books.
J-I-B
Back to whether this a belief/cultural/racial conflict.
Part of the problem for us as 'connoisseur' readers in this, is that, because we mostly see metamorphorical Discworld Trolls in A-M in the 'lowlands', we also see them in a much different light to how they are up in the mountains. We all know that Trolls are severely impaired in hot climates and so we don't see them in places like Genua, a delta city on semi-tropical swampland, or at all in Djelibeybi or Omnia which are largely desert as Trolls wouldn't go anywhere near those places, unless there was a v. good reason (and therefore why we only see Detritus in Klatch during Jingo and in a terrible state during the day of course). As I say - we know this, but actually we very rarely see Trolls in their natural home ranges in the books.
I can just about recall 1 encounter in the Witch series, which was either in WS or L&L and a toll bridge was involved. The only other instance (so far as my mashed brain can remember), where we see Trolls in cooler mountainous territories, which of course suit them very well indeed, is right back in LF where we see a more 'traditional' fantasy fiction troll clan living nocturnally in a temperate area, not mega bright, but pretty much on the ball and, in the elderly (Grandpa) reverting more and more to their natural silicous state as they grow tired of life amongst the pretty oograh and come to resemble the rocks they live amongst.
Wiki is fairly helpful on troll culture (see Wiki - Troll (Discworld)) in the later books and in the first sentence says that they have many gods. So from this PoV, belief does play a big part in the Trolls many conflicts with the Dwarves, who are not exactly godless, but do have other motivations which I'll come back to in a mo. However, I disagree that Koom Valley is 'simply' a rallying symbol of opposed ideological factors - is more fundamental (in a non- religious manner) and much simpler than that.
Dwarves love to mine for ore etc and so they are attracted to the same kind of territories that are inhabited by Trolls, who choose to live there purely because that type of climate and landscape is their natural habitat... How would you like a bunch of determined little squirts bashing your bedroom wall down, just to get at a promising vein of copper or whatever. Or excavating a nice piece of quartz (even if it does clog the arteries) in your larder that you fancied for your supper...
Koom Valley is like a metaphorical rainforest with the Dwarves as the tree-fellers and the Trolls are the indigenous natives who are defending their ancestral territories and literally their lifestyle :twisted:
Thud is gang 'turf' warfare taken too far - it's all about rock and how each faction wants to use it, where the Dwarves are the invaders and the Trolls are the eco-warriors
Part of the problem for us as 'connoisseur' readers in this, is that, because we mostly see metamorphorical Discworld Trolls in A-M in the 'lowlands', we also see them in a much different light to how they are up in the mountains. We all know that Trolls are severely impaired in hot climates and so we don't see them in places like Genua, a delta city on semi-tropical swampland, or at all in Djelibeybi or Omnia which are largely desert as Trolls wouldn't go anywhere near those places, unless there was a v. good reason (and therefore why we only see Detritus in Klatch during Jingo and in a terrible state during the day of course). As I say - we know this, but actually we very rarely see Trolls in their natural home ranges in the books.
I can just about recall 1 encounter in the Witch series, which was either in WS or L&L and a toll bridge was involved.
The only other instance (so far as my mashed brain can remember), where we see Trolls in cooler mountainous territories, which of course suit them very well indeed, is right back in LF where we see a more 'traditional' fantasy fiction troll clan living nocturnally in a temperate area, not mega bright, but pretty much on the ball and, in the elderly (Grandpa) reverting more and more to their natural silicous state as they grow tired of life amongst the pretty oograh and come to resemble the rocks they live amongst.Wiki is fairly helpful on troll culture (see Wiki - Troll (Discworld)) in the later books and in the first sentence says that they have many gods. So from this PoV, belief does play a big part in the Trolls many conflicts with the Dwarves, who are not exactly godless, but do have other motivations which I'll come back to in a mo. However, I disagree that Koom Valley is 'simply' a rallying symbol of opposed ideological factors - is more fundamental (in a non- religious manner) and much simpler than that.
Dwarves love to mine for ore etc and so they are attracted to the same kind of territories that are inhabited by Trolls, who choose to live there purely because that type of climate and landscape is their natural habitat...
- Dwarves burrow and delve into the mountains and bedrock
Trolls live in mountains and bedrock
How would you like a bunch of determined little squirts bashing your bedroom wall down, just to get at a promising vein of copper or whatever. Or excavating a nice piece of quartz (even if it does clog the arteries) in your larder that you fancied for your supper...Koom Valley is like a metaphorical rainforest with the Dwarves as the tree-fellers and the Trolls are the indigenous natives who are defending their ancestral territories and literally their lifestyle :twisted:
Thud is gang 'turf' warfare taken too far - it's all about rock and how each faction wants to use it, where the Dwarves are the invaders and the Trolls are the eco-warriors
Jan Van Quirm said:
Dwarves love to mine for ore etc and so they are attracted to the same kind of territories that are inhabited by Trolls, who choose to live there purely because that type of climate and landscape is their natural habitat... How would you like a bunch of determined little squirts bashing your bedroom wall down, just to get at a promising vein of copper or whatever. Or excavating a nice piece of quartz (even if it does clog the arteries) in your larder that you fancied for your supper...
Koom Valley is like a metaphorical rainforest with the Dwarves as the tree-fellers and the Trolls are the indigenous natives who are defending their ancestral territories and literally their lifestyle :twisted:
Thud is gang 'turf' warfare taken too far - it's all about rock and how each faction wants to use it, where the Dwarves are the invaders and the Trolls are the eco-warriors
- Dwarves burrow and delve into the mountains and bedrock
Trolls live in mountains and bedrock
How would you like a bunch of determined little squirts bashing your bedroom wall down, just to get at a promising vein of copper or whatever. Or excavating a nice piece of quartz (even if it does clog the arteries) in your larder that you fancied for your supper...Koom Valley is like a metaphorical rainforest with the Dwarves as the tree-fellers and the Trolls are the indigenous natives who are defending their ancestral territories and literally their lifestyle :twisted:
Thud is gang 'turf' warfare taken too far - it's all about rock and how each faction wants to use it, where the Dwarves are the invaders and the Trolls are the eco-warriors
Yes, the Dwarf/Trolls conflict might be a territorial issue, but no trolls get destroyed by the drarfish mining activities, any more than the humans living in AM or Uberwald get destroyed by dwarves mining under their cities. In fact, were the dwarfs not so 'speciest' against trolls, they probably could have arranged mining agreements with the trolls that would allow them to mine under the ground, where no trolls would be living or injured. It's their arrogance that made them choose war instead.
J-I-B
More things I love about "Thud!"
One of the reasons I think Thud! may be the best DW book is because it really seems to be perhaps the first DW book (okay, most of Night Watch and parts of Monstrous Regiment and Going Postal have it, too) where there are scenes of real genuine drama with genuine emotion that aren't designed to be funny and don't have magical or mystical overtones. There are so many scenes here--some long, some lasting seconds, that paint the picture of a Sam Vimes who is no longer just the copper or duke but a man who has developed a much broader range of emotional concerns that he ever had before. Just some of the scenes that are wonderful in this way:
- His first reading of "Where's My Cow" with Young Sam, where his fears over how good his life has become rear their head
- His reaction of shock and shame when Detritus angrily calls him for treating trolls differently than dwarfs during the interrogation of Brick
- Vimes' fear and fury when he sees the black dward entering Young Sam's room and his grief and relief when he finds his son is okay, seeing how close he was to losing him
- The moment after the dragons destroy the black guard, when Vimes realizes how close he was to losing Sybil as well
- The scene where Vimes confronts the city dwarfs, full of hatred until it suddenly vanishes when one of them reveals that the deep downers killed his son
- The interrogation of Helmclever, and Vimes's reaction of surrendering himself to Bashfulson's fate when the young dwarf is seemingly killed by the Summoning Dark
- Vimes insights into the dreams of A.E. Pessimal and his willingness to fulfill them
- Vimes rage at the dwarfish guard in the cavern for putting weak chains on Brick and Detritus
- Vimes' refusal to let anyone else take the cube from him, and his challenge to Rhys to take it from his hand
- Vimes whole rationalization of the Summoning Dark and his refusal to bend to 'myth'
All of these are simply marvelous scenes that add a whole new dimension of depth to the character of Sam Vimes. It's too bad that the Vimes we see in subsequent books--Making Money and UA--possesses none of these hard earned attributes.
J-I-B
One of the reasons I think Thud! may be the best DW book is because it really seems to be perhaps the first DW book (okay, most of Night Watch and parts of Monstrous Regiment and Going Postal have it, too) where there are scenes of real genuine drama with genuine emotion that aren't designed to be funny and don't have magical or mystical overtones. There are so many scenes here--some long, some lasting seconds, that paint the picture of a Sam Vimes who is no longer just the copper or duke but a man who has developed a much broader range of emotional concerns that he ever had before. Just some of the scenes that are wonderful in this way:
- His first reading of "Where's My Cow" with Young Sam, where his fears over how good his life has become rear their head
- His reaction of shock and shame when Detritus angrily calls him for treating trolls differently than dwarfs during the interrogation of Brick
- Vimes' fear and fury when he sees the black dward entering Young Sam's room and his grief and relief when he finds his son is okay, seeing how close he was to losing him
- The moment after the dragons destroy the black guard, when Vimes realizes how close he was to losing Sybil as well
- The scene where Vimes confronts the city dwarfs, full of hatred until it suddenly vanishes when one of them reveals that the deep downers killed his son
- The interrogation of Helmclever, and Vimes's reaction of surrendering himself to Bashfulson's fate when the young dwarf is seemingly killed by the Summoning Dark
- Vimes insights into the dreams of A.E. Pessimal and his willingness to fulfill them
- Vimes rage at the dwarfish guard in the cavern for putting weak chains on Brick and Detritus
- Vimes' refusal to let anyone else take the cube from him, and his challenge to Rhys to take it from his hand
- Vimes whole rationalization of the Summoning Dark and his refusal to bend to 'myth'
All of these are simply marvelous scenes that add a whole new dimension of depth to the character of Sam Vimes. It's too bad that the Vimes we see in subsequent books--Making Money and UA--possesses none of these hard earned attributes.
J-I-B
I've got to agree with you about those scenes, Jeff - they are all really well written and observed.
Vimes has always tried to steer clear of magic, which is sort of strange with him living on a world that is essentially powered by magic. But that's Sam Vimes - he doesn't trust magic and realises that it doesn't ultimately solve problems but rather, it creates more. Like he explains to AE Pessimal when he suggests the wizards could spot the rioters.
Then he has to go to the wizards and ask them for their help in getting to Koom Valley. This is, I feel a plot device more than anything. In the old days of Pratchett, if Terry wanted to get a character hundreds of miles in a short time, he'd use Rincewind. You could do anything to Rincewind but you can't with Vimes. So the compromise was a magical coach and that works just fine.
Vimes has always tried to steer clear of magic, which is sort of strange with him living on a world that is essentially powered by magic. But that's Sam Vimes - he doesn't trust magic and realises that it doesn't ultimately solve problems but rather, it creates more. Like he explains to AE Pessimal when he suggests the wizards could spot the rioters.
Then he has to go to the wizards and ask them for their help in getting to Koom Valley.
This is, I feel a plot device more than anything. In the old days of Pratchett, if Terry wanted to get a character hundreds of miles in a short time, he'd use Rincewind. You could do anything to Rincewind but you can't with Vimes. So the compromise was a magical coach and that works just fine.
