SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Trolls don't live IN mountains, they live ON mountains

Who says that? We don't know enough about Trolls in their natural habitat to dismiss that point so blithely, or assume that much about the life of Trolls. They have different uses for rocks, ores and minerals - for a start they're food for them and people whose food sources get pretty antsy about others 'wasting' them (to whit Iceland v Britain during the Cod Wars).

Same for Dwarves too - we don't really know a great deal of their lives underground and before you start firing FE and WA at that hypothesis are they actually mining in those books? No they're not, or not much. In Guards! Guards! they are, but not for very long as the action shifts to A-M. There are other types of mining too - open cast mining is done on the surface and that wouldn't be any different on Discworld.

Also - and here we stray back to belief systems the Trolls not only live on and possibly in rocks, but they are also made of metamorphorical rock. Sentient, mobile rock. The other kinds of rock are their ancestors and in some ways are also alive (I forget which book it's in and maybe there's more than one as well), as Terry has also put out a theory that rock/mountains do have some form of 'self-awareness' over huge timelines.

It still comes down to how the rocklands are perceived in the end - in the natural order Trolls have to and want to live on/in and with rocks. Dwarves do not need rock in the same way as Trolls and whilst there's plenty of rock around for everyone, when two ways of existence are fundamentally opposed what happens when they meet on disputed territory? Differences take on more aggressive connotations and world views get skewed and battered.

Remember what they think happened Koom Valley! then takes on a far more evocative and immovable racial, cultural and eventually ideological connotation. The core differences between the two communities then get buried under entrenched resentments and the need for vengeance...

 

[Tonyblack]

The natural habitat for a troll is under a bridge - I thought everyone knew that.

 

[raisindot]

Then he has to go to the wizards and ask them for their help in getting to Koom Valley. This is, I feel a plot device more than anything.

I don't think it's necessarily a plot device. After all, at the end of NW he gladly accepted Ridcully's offer to fly him to Dr. Lawn's. He doesn't trust magic, and would prefer not to use it, but the older, more mature, more accommodating Sam Vimes realizes that sometimes the "rules" need to be bent a little in order to achieve the greater good.

The scene with Vimes and Ridcully in the shed is also a great one. Considering that these two men have diametrically opposed philosophies, it's amazing that their relationship has grown over time. It shows how far Sam Vimes has come from his humble origins to earn the respect and friendship of a man as powerful and important as Ridcully.

J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

Trolls don't live IN mountains, they live ON mountains

Actually, in Light Fantastic, trolls don't live IN mountains, or ON mountains. They ARE mountains. When they get young (backwards counting) they settle down and become mountains until someone lights a fire in their mouth.

 

[poohcarrot]

The scene with Vimes and Ridcully in the shed is also a great one. Considering that these two men have diametrically opposed philosophies, it's amazing that their relationship has grown over time. It shows how far Sam Vimes has come from his humble origins to earn the respect and friendship of a man as powerful and important as Ridcully.
J-I-B

I wouldn't have said that Vimes and Ridcully have diametrically opposed philosophies. I can't think of another person more like Vimes than Ridcully, can you?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I can't think of another person more like Vimes than Ridcully, can you?

Actually yes - Granny!

Think about it - they both care really deeply about their responsibilities and cover it with an ingrained grumpy cynicism and will got to any lengths to protect their own. Also both are intelligent and analytical but inclined to being dogmatic and introspective.

Ridcully may seem outwardly the same, but that's mostly ebullient noisiness but he does have supreme confidence in his own effectiveness and instead of being cynical he's robustly self-assured and rarely thinks about failing - Nanny's like that too :twisted:

 

[poohcarrot]

OK. Apart from Granny and the aquaduct, what have the bloody Romans ever given us?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Just 'cos you got caught out on declension :twisted:

Actually there's at least one person who's exactly like Ridcully on this forum as well, come to think about it

 

[raisindot]

Trolls don't live IN mountains, they live ON mountains

Who says that? We don't know enough about Trolls in their natural habitat to dismiss that point so blithely, or assume that much about the life of Trolls. They have different uses for rocks, ores and minerals - for a start they're food for them and people whose food sources get pretty antsy about others 'wasting' them (to whit Iceland v Britain during the Cod Wars).

Same for Dwarves too - we don't really know a great deal of their lives underground and before you start firing FE and WA at that hypothesis are they actually mining in those books? No they're not, or not much. In Guards! Guards! they are, but not for very long as the action shifts to A-M. There are other types of mining too - open cast mining is done on the surface and that wouldn't be any different on Discworld.

Ummmm, where to begin. First of all, what the heck is "FE" and "WA"?

Second, I haven't found a single reference in any DW book that says that trolls live 'within' mountains or within rock itself. References always discuss them living in mountainous areas, but never "inside" the rock itself. Maybe they do have a mythological connection with geography, but they're certainly not bound to it (in the way that, say, witches are bound to the geography of their territory). Certainly if that were a requirement you wouldn't find thousands of them living in AM or dragging their clubs across the plains. So, I'm not sure how your point is supported by the DW narrative itself. If it is, I'd love to see examples.

Third, every book where the dwarves are featured DOES portray them as primarily "underground miners." That why there's so much respect for the "deep downer" dwarfs who never come above ground. I've never heard of dwarves destroying the surface of mountains or do doing strip mining of any kind in any DW book--it would almost seem blasphemous to their very nature. And, again, we don't see any aversion by trolls to using rocks and stones to build garden sculptures, golems, or Slab. If the trolls did consider themselves to be made of the same essence as inorganic rocks, wouldn't you think they'd avoid working with or eating stones and minerals?

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Sure, there is probably a territorial dimension to their emnity--any culture would reject any other culture that tried to invade their territory, even if they were only trying to "undermine" it. But none of this seems to be the source of the dwarf/troll animosity, which seem to be far more rooted in, as Thud! suggests, the "current" dwarves' assumption of ethnic superiority based on their (incorrect) interpretation of the Tak creation story. Even Shine admits that the dwarves have successfully used this interpretation to convince humans and other races that trolls are stupid, club-dragging beasts.

8)

J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

FE = Fifth Elephant
WA = Witches Abroad

I think...

 

[raisindot]

I can't think of another person more like Vimes than Ridcully, can you?

Actually yes - Granny!

Oh, absolutely! Vimes and Granny are nearly spittin' images of each other. Their mental processes work exactly the same way. The only difference may be that Granny always had self-confidence, whereas Vimes had none until relatively late in life.

I once tried to start a fanfic short story that featured both Granny and Vimes, somehow thrown together to solve some kind of mystery that involved them both. Common sense took over and I shoved it aside, but, in the wishful thinking department, wouldn't it be amazing to have them both (perhaps with Ridcully serving as the third point of a triangle) in a DW novel?

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

FE = Fifth Elephant
WA = Witches Abroad

I think...

Yes that's it - thanks Tony

J-I-B - you're usually so authoritative I thought you'd get the usual shorthand for the book titles as I'm sure I've seen you use them yourself occasionally....

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

I can't and you know I can't because there aren't any! This is what I mean about the 'true' Trolls - there's so little written about them apart from in Colour of Magic & Light Fantastic where they are at least coherently sensible (apart from Grandpa who's so much like the mountain that people shelter IN him!). So who's to say they do or don't live on or in rock, just because Terry's never written much about mountain trolls. He hasn't written that much about dwarf miners either when it comes down to it...

Sure, there is probably a territorial dimension to their emnity--any culture would reject any other culture that tried to invade their territory, even if they were only trying to "undermine" it. But none of this seems to be the source of the dwarf/troll animosity, which seem to be far more rooted in, as Thud! suggests, the "current" dwarves' assumption of ethnic superiority based on their (incorrect) interpretation of the Tak creation story. Even Shine admits that the dwarves have successfully used this interpretation to convince humans and other races that trolls are stupid, club-dragging beasts.

That's because the other races don't see much of either trolls or dwarves in their original homelands because trolls and dwarves are now living more cosmopolitanly in A-M and some of the other communities in the temperate parts of the Disc and both of them are different there. Dwarves are easier for humans to understand and relate to because they're more or less in the same (smaller) shape and act pretty much like humans most of the time.

Not only that but in the cities they're very industrious law-abiding citizens (until they get a drink inside them) and make all kinds of interesting and useful things and excellent ironware and weaponry, movable print, masonry - and lately underground mine workings... In Fifth Elephant - sure they live underground and mine fat etc but in the actual story you find out far, far more about local political factions and sexism in the dwarfish nation than on industrial matters.

Whatever Trolls do in the mountains is much more 'invisible' and all we really seem to know, courtesy of the dwarves in the cities, is that they behave as stupidly and thuggishly in their homelands as they do on the warmer plains or on loam. We know they don't because we've seen how clever Detritus is in Men at Arms and in Jingo too (at night when the temperature plummets) so why is it so hard to believe that Mr. Shine is the troll leader partly by virtue of his ability to function well at sea-level as well as other trolls can do in their natural habitat. We simply don't see trolls in that way because most of the time they're exactly like the dwarves are saying - by our standards, which are not troll standards because they're not remotely like us.

So it's cultural/racial prejudices and bias that allow the trolls to look like the big bad stupid aggressors even when the dwarves are still acting like sneaky cunning little baskets who love gold and want to get their hands on as much as possible because we know they're like that since they've started to live in cities to get their mitts on the other sort of gold by working in non-traditional but still skilled trades.They can do that simply 'cos they're equipped better to handle the climate. Another bias and stereotyping, because they don't just mine gold in their own natural territories of course...

As 'civilised' beings trolls have to overcome major hurdles to be considered decent, honest and sensitive beings whilst dwarves don't have to make that many concessions because they're better adapted to make their way in the world.

 

[chuckie]

FE = Fifth Elephant
WA = Witches Abroad

I think...

Yes that's it - thanks Tony

J-I-B - you're usually so authoritative I thought you'd get the usual shorthand for the book titles as I'm sure I've seen you use them yourself occasionally....

Don't know about any one else but i don't always know which book is being refered to when abreviations are being used.
I would ask that if anyone refers to a book then they use the full title at least for the first time, only using abreviations for any further references.

 

[raisindot]

I can't and you know I can't because there aren't any! This is what I mean about the 'true' Trolls - there's so little written about them apart from in Colour of Magic & Light Fantastic where they are at least coherently sensible (apart from Grandpa who's so much like the mountain that people shelter IN him!). So who's to say they do or don't live on or in rock, just because Terry's never written much about mountain trolls. He hasn't written that much about dwarf miners either when it comes down to it...

I'll buy all of that. The best anyone can do is conjecture what the "true" mounain trolls are really like, given, as you said, that Pterry doesn't tell us too much about them. But I disagree with your assertion that we don't know much about the dwarf miners. Starting with "Guards, Guards," really, we learn quite a bit about the dwarfish miners from Carrot's letters home. Follow that through the very detailed descriptions of the dwarfish gender issues in "Feet of Clay," and the rich description of dwarfish history and tradition in "The Fifth Elephant," for those of you playing at home, and you probably a much richer vision of the reality of dwarfish life
than, say, Tolkien achieved with his dwarfs in Lord of The Rings.

8)


J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

You're preaching to the wrong person on LotR dwarves - he wrote a lot about them, (even gave them their own languge - Khuzdul which wasn't as well realised as the Elven ones but ran to several hundred words ) just not in LotR necessarily - plus his generation of writers saw dwarves and trolls very narrowly and in the Grimm tradition of course

I'd say the dwarf info in Guards! Guards! is very superficial though it gets better when Cheery arrives and more detailed by Fifth Elephant, particularly on political issues - dwarves are more 'in the public domain' than trolls is what I'm really saying and everyone 'knows' that they're miners after they've seen Snow White when they're 4 or whatever.

In Discworld we know far more about dwarves and trolls in their UNnatural environments than their traditional ones and that's not Terry's ommission as such - Trolls are always the bad guys in fairy tales after all and so they have an immediate bad press in most people's reactions until they start to like Detritus and Ruby and Flint (in Moving Pics) and even Chyrsoprase. But they're all city trolls of course...

This is why Thud's out of the ordinary run of Discworld books as it's striking out into new teritory and showing us a fuller picture of how Terry's now looking at his trolls, starting with Detritus and his handling of Brick and then bringing in Mr Shine to literally dazzle our preconceptions away on how trolls 'work' in the multiverse and not just on Roundworld's traditional nightmare take of them :twisted:

 

[poohcarrot]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

 

[Tonyblack]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

You're right Pooh, but I'm not sure where it is either. Although it is suggested that the dwarfs tend to do this accidentally.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).

Yes there is. I am 110% sure of it. But I don't know where the quote is.

I thought Pratchett said something about dwarves sometimes trying to mine Trolls who were sitting quietly and that being a problem between them, but now I'm wondering if I'm confusing it with the bit about Druids from Soul Music and Trolls objecting to being dragged across the country and buried up to their knees in a stone circle?

 

[poohcarrot]

I believe the theme of Thud, like a lot of other Discworld books, is anti-religious fundamentalism, in favour of science and reason.

The very first page it says this

The first brother walked towards the light and stood under the open sky. Thus he became too tall. He was the first Man. He found no laws, and he was enlightened.

The second brother walked towards the darkness, and stood under a roof of stone. Thus he achieved the correct height. He was the first Dwarf. He found the Laws Tak had written, and he was endarkened.

The Enlightenment (dictionary definition) = A period in the 18th century when many scientists and writers began to argue that science and reason were more important than religion and tradition.

Therefore;

The Endarkenment = When religion and tradition are more important than science and reason.

J-I-B stated that dwarfs have no religion. I totally disagree. They believe they were created by a God. They follow his laws. They believe in an afterlife.

The villains in the book are the religious fundamentalist dwarfs.

Imo made us clever enough to work out that he doesn't exist.

I'd rather be a rising ape, than a fallen angel

The whole book is anti-religious fundies, especially Islamic fundies, written by a non-God believer. 8)

 

[Tonyblack]

I hadn't spotted that thing about Enlightened and Endarkened - at least I hadn't seen the significance of it, but I think you're right Pooh.

I also think that the dwarfs do indeed have a religion, whether they think so or not. I guess it's a case of how you define 'religion'.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

religion [rɪˈlɪdʒən]
n
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief the Christian religion
3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
4. (Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) Chiefly RC Church the way of life determined by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience entered upon by monks, friars, and nuns to enter religion
5. something of overwhelming importance to a person football is his religion
6. Archaic
a. the practice of sacred ritual observances
b. sacred rites and ceremonies
[via Old French from Latin religiō fear of the supernatural, piety, probably from religāre to tie up, from re- + ligāre to bind]

These definition would seem to say that the dwarfs are religious.