SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

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Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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Fascinating as this discussion is, it's not getting us anywhere and I'd suggest that at this stage we agree to disagree. :)

The book seems to to parody strong beliefs in general whether they be religious, racial or whatever. I think we've all managed to make our points on that fact very well and are not going to be able to take the point much further.

So let's move on, shall we? :)

How much of Sam Vimes actions do you think were influenced by the Summoning Dark inside him and how much was Sam Vimes out for justice? o_O:
 

raisindot

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poohcarrot said:
raisindot said:
The worst punishment one can inflict upon a dwarf (Catholic) is not retribution by a higher power, but to be declared to be "not a dwarf (Catholic)," i.e., having one's cultural (religious) identify removed from them. This has nothing (everything) to do with religion. It's more like having one's citizenship removed and/or being deported.
J-I-B
...or being excommunicated by the Catholic church, perhaps? :p

PS You've also de-classified Jainism and Confucianism as religions - and I can't be bothered to check just how many other religions you don't think are religions. :p
Of course it's like being ex-communicated. It's also like being cast out of society like a leper. Or being kicked out of the commune for eating a cheeseburger. Or many other ways that people can be ejected from a community that don't necessarily have anything to do with religion.

:laugh:

I know nothing about Jainism, but, yes, if you had bothered to read what I wrote many messages ago you would have seen that I clearly stated that Confucianism is not, in its strictest sense, a religion. People don't pray to Confucius to cure their gout. They don't believe they will get sent to Hell if they don't obey all of the analects. They don't make burnt offerings to Confucius. Instead, they take the wise sayings of a wise man and they follow them as good moral practices.

Now, if you're saying that Confucianism is a religion than you must, by default, believe that communism, Nazism, Maoism, Platoism, existentialism, transcendentalism, capitalism, fascism, republicanism, Titoism, Claptonism, libertarianism, constitutionalism, Stalinism and even atheism are all religions because people adhere to their philosophies and practices, venerate those who created these belief systems, and create institutions, practices, and teachings that are designed to perpetuate these belief systems. By this definition we are all religious. Hosanna!

:laugh:

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

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Tonyblack said:
So let's move on, shall we? :)

How much of Sam Vimes actions do you think were influenced by the Summoning Dark inside him and how much was Sam Vimes out for justice? o_O:
Aww! We hadn't done pebbles and twinkles properly yet! :p :laugh:

I think in A-M the summoning dark and Sam's doing his job, had the same aims so they actually worked together up until they got to Koom Valley.

Actually that's not strictly true - Sam wasn't doing his job that well because he was mad as hell with the murderous attack on his family and was out for retribution the Vimes way, which is why the Summoning Dark got its hooks into him in the 1st place ;)
 

poohcarrot

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Sep 13, 2009
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NOT The land of the risen Son!!
I agree, let's move on (just when it was starting to get interesting :( ). :laugh: My final parting shot though is this;

J-I-B said:
Without a living god to worship, or to strike you down with a thunderbolt, there can't be religion.
You're talking about monotheism. Not all religions are montheistic, you know. Shinto as you yourself said, is polytheistic. And there are no gods to strike you down with a thunderbolt. So clearly you don't class Shinto as a religion. 8)
 

Jan Van Quirm

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Dear Blind Io/Tak/Hoki the Jokester

This is to confirm my prayer order for delivery of 2 separate thunderbolts to Boston and to somewhere or other in Chiba (or thereabouts) to Jeff and pooh for trying to get their highly chopped last words in...

Shut it you pair of smartypants! :twisted: :laugh:

Go and do something usefully informative like research troll twinkles and pebbles :eek: :p
 
Jan Van Quirm said:
Dear Blind Io/Tak/Hoki the Jokester

This is to confirm my prayer order for delivery of 2 separate thunderbolts to Boston and to somewhere or other in Chiba (or thereabouts) to Jeff and pooh for trying to get their highly chopped last words in...

Shut it you pair of smartypants! :twisted: :laugh:

Go and do something usefully informatively like research troll twinkles and pebbles :eek: :p
I concur and countersign this letter!

Lady Vetinari

So, troll twinkles and pebbles ...

I think Detritus favourite song would be Get Your Rocks Off ... wouldn't it? :twisted:
 
Jul 25, 2008
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Jan Van Quirm said:
Tonyblack said:
So let's move on, shall we? :)

How much of Sam Vimes actions do you think were influenced by the Summoning Dark inside him and how much was Sam Vimes out for justice? o_O:
Aww! We hadn't done pebbles and twinkles properly yet! :p :laugh:

I think in A-M the summoning dark and Sam's doing his job, had the same aims so they actually worked together up until they got to Koom Valley.

Actually that's not strictly true - Sam wasn't doing his job that well because he was mad as hell with the murderous attack on his family and was out for retribution the Vimes way, which is why the Summoning Dark got its hooks into him in the 1st place ;)
I'm trying to avoid getting back into the previous discussion, but I've got to disagree with a detail Jan--the Summoning Dark got into him well before the attack. It was when he touched the door where the murdered dwarf had left the curse.

One of Sam's most interesting characteristics, I think, is that he has always had a boiling anger which he keeps under strict control (via the Watchman). It's the power that makes him a good cop. And actually, I think that it gives him (in some strange way) the emotional intensity which makes him capable of great love for Sybil and young Sam. It makes him care about ordinary people. It's the same anger that made him a drunk prior to meeting Sybil.

At the risk of talking about religion--The Summoning Dark (along with a number of the other Darks) seem to be both a kind of "dark angels" of the Dwarfs, and at the same time Ridcully and Vetinari both recognize it as a magical entity, millions of years old. In some ways, it's a bit like the Hiver in HFOS--but much more malignant.

Do you think that the deep down grags have any idea that Rhys is female? I don't think they do, but they are certainly uneasy about the path he/she is taking the Dwarfs on. Batch of typical males. :laugh:
 

poohcarrot

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NOT The land of the risen Son!!
Hang about just a minute! o_O

What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption? :eek:

Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female? :laugh:
 

Jan Van Quirm

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swreader said:
I'm trying to avoid getting back into the previous discussion, but I've got to disagree with a detail Jan--the Summoning Dark got into him well before the attack. It was when he touched the door where the murdered dwarf had left the curse.

One of Sam's most interesting characteristics, I think, is that he has always had a boiling anger which he keeps under strict control (via the Watchman). It's the power that makes him a good cop. And actually, I think that it gives him (in some strange way) the emotional intensity which makes him capable of great love for Sybil and young Sam. It makes him care about ordinary people. It's the same anger that made him a drunk prior to meeting Sybil.
I've only read Thud once and that was several months back so I'm not remembering things blow by blow. :oops: :laugh:

However - Sam's inherent anger management issues and deeply passionate but controlled anger :laugh: must have been almost magneticly attractive to a magically parasitic creature that needs the power of nightmares to manipulate and control for its own ends. When it entered him isn't necessarily important because it didn't want a dwarf as a 'free ride' back to Koom Valley - it could have had any number of grags to do that duty. It chose Sam and the reason for that was because he has the sort of power the SD needed to do its biggest bit of manipulation yet. In fact maybe the grags attack on Vimes Manor was also induced as a result of the SD's influencing him and adding yet more passionate fuel to Sam's handling of the case and provoking into taking such drastic action?
 

raisindot

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Jan Van Quirm said:
However - Sam's inherent anger management issues and deeply passionate but controlled anger :laugh: must have been almost magneticly attractive to a magically parasitic creature that needs the power of nightmares to manipulate and control for its own ends. When it entered him isn't necessarily important because it didn't want a dwarf as a 'free ride' back to Koom Valley - it could have had any number of grags to do that duty. It chose Sam and the reason for that was because he has the sort of power the SD needed to do its biggest bit of manipulation yet. In fact maybe the grags attack on Vimes Manor was also induced as a result of the SD's influencing him and adding yet more passionate fuel to Sam's handling of the case and provoking into taking such drastic action?
Hmmmm....not sure whether the narrative holds that argument. The Summoning Dwarf was "conjured up" by the dwarf that died on the other side of the door. That dwarf probably did not have Sam Vimes in mind, nor did he probably have justice as his motive, but rather revenge. The dwarf would probably have assumed that another dwarf would receive the curse, since no one would have assumed that a human would ever go down into a dwarf mine in AM. Therefore, the SM was "waiting" for someone to come into contact with whatever it was that would allow it to infect it. This question is, does the SD "choose" who it infects, or can it only affect someone who accidentally touches the nail or whatever that it's 'living' on? It's not made clear here, because we don't get a clear sense that any of the dwarves went down that tunnel after the not-quite-dead dward called up the curse on the other side of the door. We know that Helmclever heard the dying dwarf, but we don't know whether he was there when the dying dwarf called up the SD curse.

You're probably right that Vimes's anger did unconsciously draw him to the nail with the SD on it. Gotta check the book, but I believe that when he is exploring the tunnel with Angua he goes walkabout and takes the "side tunnel" that leads to the door where he gets infected with the SD. So, it very well may be the SD "senses" someone with anger and power then 'calls them' to it. Why not Helmclever? Maybe because he was not angry, but grief-stricken, or the SD perceived him to be too weak to carry out revenge.

In terms of the attack on Vimes' property, I'd like to believe that it was Vimes' own personal, dogged determination to uncover the truth, rather than the influence of the SD, that pushed him to peel away the layers of lies that led to the feeling of threat among the conspirators that motivated them to try to kill him. He's plenty good at using his own anger to plow through deception without any outside help.

:laugh:

J-I-B
 

raisindot

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Lady Vetinari said:
Jan Van Quirm said:
Dear Blind Io/Tak/Hoki the Jokester

Go and do something usefully informatively like research troll twinkles and pebbles :eek: :p
I concur and countersign this letter!

Lady Vetinari

So, troll twinkles and pebbles ...
Boy, leave it to women to refer to a troll's wosittsname as a 'pebble.'

:twisted:

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

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raisindot said:
.... I'd like to believe that it was Vimes' own personal, dogged determination to uncover the truth, rather than the influence of the SD, that pushed him to peel away the layers of lies that led to the feeling of threat among the conspirators that motivated them to try to kill him. He's plenty good at using his own anger to plow through deception without any outside help.
That's really what I meant - the SD needs the the power and the focus and the aim as well. Most often it will use a dwarf because dwarves are the only game in town deep down but this dwarf didn't die deep down and it recognised a person it could use without having to waste a lot of time twisting them to its will. It probably doesn't matter whether the person's strong-willed or attuned to the ways of the dwarves - Carrot would have been the better candidate to infest on that basis. The SD needed a mindset like Vimes's, someone who was used to command and the drive to physically take it where it wanted to go.

For me, the point where it becomes obvious that Vimes is 'possessed' by the SD is quite a shock because quite honestly Vimes really hasn't been acting that out of character at all - a lot grumpier than usual perhaps with the 'racial tension' in the city - why wouldn't he be, and he's also right in focussing that anger on the messianic grags who're stirring up all the trouble seemingly - and then quite justifiably mad as hell over the attack on his family. I didn't notice him behaving at all out of his general remit until he was in the underground river, which is why I said the SD and Sam's own motivation to be in Koom Valley were the same, even if their reasons for going there was very different indeed.

PS:- You should see the size of some of the pebbles near where I live (compare them to the dune grasses and fencing - they're massive! They wouldn't look out of place in a rockery or a rugged moraine terrace (in fact that's more or less what they are, only smoothed by the sea) :p It wasn't necessarily meant to be an insult ;)
 

raisindot

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Jan Van Quirm said:
For me, the point where it becomes obvious that Vimes is 'possessed' by the SD is quite a shock because quite honestly Vimes really hasn't been acting that out of character at all - a lot grumpier than usual perhaps with the 'racial tension' in the city - why wouldn't he be, and he's also right in focussing that anger on the messianic grags who're stirring up all the trouble seemingly - and then quite justifiably mad as hell over the attack on his family. I didn't notice him behaving at all out of his general remit until he was in the underground river, which is why I said the SD and Sam's own motivation to be in Koom Valley were the same, even if their reasons for going there was very different indeed.
Well, every time he rubs his hand is generally a clue that the thing is influencing him, as it usually accompanies an angry or violent thought he's had. Certainly when he sees the dwarf guard entering Young Sam's room you can feel the SD--combined with Vimes's own "Beast"--working together. You also see the SD rearing its head when Vimes meets with the city dwarfs afterwards. His rational self knows that they aren't responsible for the attack, but the influence of the SD makes him want to lay the truncheon on all of 'em. But, yeah, the thing doesn't really truly take over him until he falls into the river in Koom Valley. Even then, it's probably not totally taking over--it's a combination of the SD and Vimes's own inner Beast, coupled with his own nearly pathological need to make sure he doesn't disappoint Young Sam by missing the nightly reading of (WMC(happy, Pooh?)) "Where's My Cow."

J-I-B
 
poohcarrot said:
Hang about just a minute! o_O

What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption? :eek:

Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female? :laugh:
:eek: Who'd have thought the day would come when I agree with Pooh! :eek:
 
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I'll get to the male/female question in my next post--but the answer is that the dwarfs, like all the other species on disc world (and most human races) have historically treated females as subservient and lesser beings. The reason there is no dwarf in Monstrous Regiment is because Terry has dealt with the dwarf problem in 5th E and T.

But as to the Summoning, the key to understanding it is to watch what it says, and what it causes Sam to think and/or say. The Summoning Dark is not simply a Dwarf belief, though it has been working with dwarfs for about the past 10,000 years. Certainly it draws on the anger that Sam has which is provoked by Ardent's arrogance. Sam gets angrier and angrier until, with Angua, he stops following Argent and goes down the boarded off tunnel where he touches the door and gets "infected" by the Summoning Dark (hereafter SD). This creature has (read the italicized portions) never seen a mind like Sam's

The creature swam through a mind. It had seen thousands of minds since the universe began, but there was something strange about this one. ...
The creature was old, although it would be more accurate to say that it had existed for a long time. When, at the start of all things, the primordial clouds of mind had collapsed into gods and demons and souls of all levels, it had been among those who had never drifted close to a major accretion.l So it had entered the universe aimlessly, without task or affiliation, a scarp of being blowing free, fitting in wherever it could, a sort of complicated thought looking for the right kind of mind. Currently--that is to say for the past ten thousand years, it had found work as a superstition.


Clearly, the SD (as it is called by the Dwarfs, predates the dwarfs. It looks for rage and anger--so it seems likely that it lured Sam to it. But it is not initially directed at turning Sam against the Dwarfs. The first indication of it is when he confronts the stupid trolls who are delivering Chrysophase's request for a meeting. And he threatened your family,his hind brain added. He had it coming-- And Sam notices the pain in his hand and the stab of the headache.

I think that Sam, who has a large reservoir of controlled anger, would probably have acted in somewhat the same fashion on his own. But, it is only the fact that the Guarding Dark becomes aware of him and begins watching and thwarting the SD's efforts that keeps Sam from going berserk long before Koom Valley. But, it does want to get him to Koom Valley to kill the Grags and if not killed in the process to die insane. But the GD saves him from the efforts of SD when he refuses to kill the Grags--not for pity, but "You don't kill the helpless. You just don't." It has left it's mark when it existed. "I salute you, said a thought that was not his, and he felt the sudden absence of something whose presence he had not noticed before."

The point is that Sam's rage is much stronger than before. He is being manipulated even though he denies it during the time and after. But that means that Sam and GD are stronger together than SD--which makes him the man who is capable of saving AM from the effect of another Koom Valley.
 

raisindot

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Jan Van Quirm said:
PS:- You should see the size of some of the pebbles near where I live (compare them to the dune grasses and fencing - they're massive! They wouldn't look out of place in a rockery or a rugged moraine terrace (in fact that's more or less what they are, only smoothed by the sea) :p It wasn't necessarily meant to be an insult ;)
To quote Michael Scott of the Yank version of "The Office": "That's what she said!"

:laugh:

From the TonyBlack dictionary:

Pebble: A small, rounded stone, esp. one worn smooth by the action of water.

No wonder dem male trolls hang out wif other males sniffin' Slab instead of wif dem female trolls wots callin' der rocks pebbles alla time

;)

J-I-B
 

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