SPOILERS Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Lady Vetinari said:
poohcarrot said:
Hang about just a minute! 
What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption?
Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female?
What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption?
Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female?
Who'd have thought the day would come when I agree with Pooh!
When Sam & Angua first meet Ardent and he objects to The Sergeant did not accompany Sam to the meeting in his office. When Sam questions him, his answer is "The obvious reason," said Argent. "She is openly female." And Sam has to insist over Ardent's objection that Angua (a female Watch officer) should accompany him. Ardent consistently dismisses the knowledge of women. He and he Grags reject the authority of the Low King because he is "Wishy-washy. Dangerously liberal. Shllow. He has seen the light." This rather strongly suggests that they have not recognized Rhys as female--they just object to his policies.
But when Bashfullson confronts Ardent at he cave, he uses a very significant word Ha'ak!. That is the word which has been used as a term of outrage toward Cheri in 5th Elephant. Exactly what it means we do not learn, but Detritus knows it's a "bad word" and threaten to shoot anyone who uses it again on their trip to Beonk. It is used about Chreri by the conservative canditate, Albertson, and Sam threates him with "repercussions" if it is used again.
In other words--it's quite clear from the two books that the male Dwarfs, even including Carrot, are shocked and appalled to find that their daughters or any dwarf does not choose, uniformly, to adopt what is essentially a male role as being truly Dwafih. Cheri doesn't like drinking beer and singing about gold She doesn't like using an ax though she will if necessary. That's why she's such a shock to all the traditional deep-down dwarfs. It is simply inconceivable that the Grags in Thud! realize that Rhys is a female Dwarf.
I think the difference here is that the dwarfs do not like their females to act like human females. It's about sex really. Dwarfs are sexless and the only time gender becomes an issue is in the privacy of their homes. In some ways it's a bit like a European woman going to somewhere like Iran wearing a miniskirt and low-cut blouse. The males (and possibly the females) there would be outraged as they'd see sexuality flaunted in front of them.
The grags may be male or female, but to a dwarf that doesn't matter as long as they behave like a dwarf. Cheery, for example, isn't behaving like a female dwarf, she's copying human females. In some ways that goes for most of the dwarfs who have moved to, or were born in Ankh-Morpork. They may outwardly look like dwarfs, but the more they live with humans, the more they act like humans. The slowly integrate into A-M society.
The grags may be male or female, but to a dwarf that doesn't matter as long as they behave like a dwarf. Cheery, for example, isn't behaving like a female dwarf, she's copying human females. In some ways that goes for most of the dwarfs who have moved to, or were born in Ankh-Morpork. They may outwardly look like dwarfs, but the more they live with humans, the more they act like humans. The slowly integrate into A-M society.
Hmmm...that's interesting. I wonder if Ha'ak translates as "corrupt," in the context of "behavior unbecoming a true dwarf?"For Albertson, Cheery's open femaleness represents the corruption of traditional Dwarfish gender conventions. In Koom Valley, Bashfullson uses the word to characterize Ardent's most un-Dwarfish behavior of destroying words, witnesses and the Truth.
J-I-B
J-I-B
poohcarrot said:
I've noticed something about Thud.
Where ever possible, TP uses the word "thud" to describe various things ie; the sound of the dwarf pumps, the sound of people's heartbeats, being hit on the head and I'm sure there was another one too. 8)
Where ever possible, TP uses the word "thud" to describe various things ie; the sound of the dwarf pumps, the sound of people's heartbeats, being hit on the head and I'm sure there was another one too. 8)
There's also a theme running through Thud of 'the writing on the wall'.
Well, since the next book appears to be a sequel to "Thud!" I just thought I'd resurrect this one, since, contrary what certain others think, I personally consider Thud! to be just about Pterry's best book.
But anyway, I don't know why this suddenly occurred to me, but I realize why everyone thought that the peace meetings between the Low King and the Diamond King of the Trolls would signal the start of a new day of peace and cooperation between these ancient races.
After all, everyone would be expected to emulate the kings' example:
"Rhys and Shine!"
J-I-B
But anyway, I don't know why this suddenly occurred to me, but I realize why everyone thought that the peace meetings between the Low King and the Diamond King of the Trolls would signal the start of a new day of peace and cooperation between these ancient races.
After all, everyone would be expected to emulate the kings' example:
"Rhys and Shine!"
J-I-B
Tonyblack said:
Nice idea except Rhys is pronounced 'Reece'.
http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Rhys/m
On the other hand, who's to say that here in the states, where we have a different way of thinkin' about speakin' and writin' English, it isn't pronouned RISE? After all, if we can drop the "u" from words like "colour," put articles in front of words like "hospital," use "phat" instead of "fat" AND get these variants into the OED turn nouns like "cotton" into verbs, a little vowel switching every now and then is a piece of CAKE!
J-I-B
