UA - Not Loving it and feeling like traitoress
- Thread starter Perdita X
- Start date
Raisindot - what does YMMV mean ? (BTW I bloody hate nemonics)
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Perdita X
Sorry Sorry - ignore me - just reread the posts and got the answer
he's very Cheeky isnt he Dotsie! - i say dearie you're a cheeky boy - have you got your parrot head umbrella handy Dotsie? - he might need a tickle with it !
TTFN
Perdita X
Sorry Sorry - ignore me - just reread the posts and got the answer
he's very Cheeky isnt he Dotsie! - i say dearie you're a cheeky boy - have you got your parrot head umbrella handy Dotsie? - he might need a tickle with it !
Dotsie said:
That's Sadie's, & even I wouldn't take it from her But I might whack him with my handbag 
But I might whack him with my handbag
Oh wait, this belongs in the S&M forum. Sorry. :twisted:
J-I-B.
I haven't finished it yet, but I absolutely love it. Mr Nutt is fast becoming one of my favourite characters ever. I can kind of relate to the themes in the book though as a fair few people (if you can call them that) I knew from school have themselves become football fanatics to the extent of hooliganism. Methinks they watch too much Football Factory and Green Street!
I am Brit ... I am not into football and some of the jokes went right over my head and I thought Vetinari seemed out of character - so it is not rated at the top for me either ...
And ladies ... Vetinari is mine! :twisted:
Can't remember who said it but I love Hogfather - and the DVD was really good ... Marc Warren (and I picked up on this before I read the interview) based his performance on Johnny Depps portrayal of Willy Wonka... Not entirely though...
I had Monstrous Regiment read to me over the phone and I did not even want to hear the ending I was bored with it!
I also struggled through Equal Rites.
And ladies ... Vetinari is mine! :twisted:
Can't remember who said it but I love Hogfather - and the DVD was really good ... Marc Warren (and I picked up on this before I read the interview) based his performance on Johnny Depps portrayal of Willy Wonka... Not entirely though...
I had Monstrous Regiment read to me over the phone and I did not even want to hear the ending I was bored with it!
I also struggled through Equal Rites.
The first time I read UA I loved it and thought it was probably the best book yet. I loved the football, the Ork and Terry introduced some of his best characters yet.
But upon re-reading I began to like it less for one main reason. I have always loved Ankh-Morpork, I find it similar in many ways to my own city of Dublin. I suppose you could really relate AM to any city in the world particularly in S America or Asia.
But reading UA I was very much reading about England. It was undoubtedly more like Liverpool, London or Manchester than the cities of any other country.
Just remember, "His hands be blest, but they are not devine".
EDIT: I also think this was one of Terry's best portrayals of Vetinari.
But upon re-reading I began to like it less for one main reason. I have always loved Ankh-Morpork, I find it similar in many ways to my own city of Dublin. I suppose you could really relate AM to any city in the world particularly in S America or Asia.
But reading UA I was very much reading about England. It was undoubtedly more like Liverpool, London or Manchester than the cities of any other country.
Just remember, "His hands be blest, but they are not devine".
EDIT: I also think this was one of Terry's best portrayals of Vetinari.
I agree with what so many of you have said; UA is not one of my favourites after two readings but then they can't all be. I did, however enjoy the part where Ponder & co refined the rules of football. It made me see the point of the offside-rule for the first time.
Just one thing, though - have orcs been mentioned in any other books? And what about the Evil Empire? It may be that I've just missed the clues, but it all seemed very sudden to me. And the whole "Evil past of Überwald"-thing reminded me of a series written by Diana Wynne Jones.
Just one thing, though - have orcs been mentioned in any other books? And what about the Evil Empire? It may be that I've just missed the clues, but it all seemed very sudden to me. And the whole "Evil past of Überwald"-thing reminded me of a series written by Diana Wynne Jones.
Good to see you here again Miss Teatime!
Terry has often likened Discworld to Tolkien's 'Middle Earth', several hundred years after the wars in Lord of the Rings. In DW, the various races have settled down to the everyday task of living and making a living.
If this analogy is correct, then what did happen to the Orcs in Tolkien's books? Did they stay evil when they no longer had an enemy? And could they be integrated into polite society? I think these are some of the questions that Terry addresses.
We don't know much about the history of Uberwald as Terry hasn't written about it - but this book explores a little of that.
Terry has often likened Discworld to Tolkien's 'Middle Earth', several hundred years after the wars in Lord of the Rings. In DW, the various races have settled down to the everyday task of living and making a living.
If this analogy is correct, then what did happen to the Orcs in Tolkien's books? Did they stay evil when they no longer had an enemy? And could they be integrated into polite society? I think these are some of the questions that Terry addresses.
We don't know much about the history of Uberwald as Terry hasn't written about it - but this book explores a little of that.
Did someone mention Middle Earth?
The official Tolkien Society line is that the Orcs as a totally corrupted and to some degree (in modern parlance) genetically mutated race were largely dependant on their evil masters/creators 'angelic/demonic' powers to keep them from going completely insane and just killing everything in sight including or especially each other.
During the periods where Sauron and his own master Morgoth were out of the picture (allegedly - Sauron stuck like glue but was mostly powerless after the Last Alliance for 1000 years or so ) The Orcs mostly went native and did manage to survive in clans out of the light in the mountain ranges and effectively achieved a balance whereby they culled each other quite regularly and only caused minimal impact to stupid sods who went looking for trouble (mostly Elves who were also partially demented in their hatred of Orcs since that is how a lot of Orcs started out... 
) - also a few Dwarves and a Hobbit, the story of which is going to make Peter Jackson and Guillermo del Toro a pretty penny soon in 2012.
The appendices that Tolkien actually wrote for the period after LotR on the premise that Sauron had actually been destroyed for good has nearly all his soldier orcs falling into disarray and basically exterminating themselves. Ditto most of the feral mountain orcs as a consequence of their own descent from orcs 'made' by Sauron and any that weren't were exterminated by the twin sons of Elrond who had a pathological hatred of orcs anyway and had spent 500 odd years killing them on sight before the main event... 8) Aragorn and his crew also helped a bit but they were more interested in 'peacemaking' operation with the 'swarthy men' who had been drummed into service with the nasssty Dark Lord and apparently took one look at the big shiney sword and immediately repented and begged to become vassal states.
So complete genocide and/or arcane extinction is the official answer for the poor ole Orcs in Middle Earth... Discworld is a kinder place of course
The official Tolkien Society line is that the Orcs as a totally corrupted and to some degree (in modern parlance) genetically mutated race were largely dependant on their evil masters/creators 'angelic/demonic' powers to keep them from going completely insane and just killing everything in sight including or especially each other.
During the periods where Sauron and his own master Morgoth were out of the picture (allegedly - Sauron stuck like glue but was mostly powerless after the Last Alliance for 1000 years or so
) The Orcs mostly went native and did manage to survive in clans out of the light in the mountain ranges and effectively achieved a balance whereby they culled each other quite regularly and only caused minimal impact to stupid sods who went looking for trouble (mostly Elves who were also partially demented in their hatred of Orcs since that is how a lot of Orcs started out... ) - also a few Dwarves and a Hobbit, the story of which is going to make Peter Jackson and Guillermo del Toro a pretty penny soon in 2012.The appendices that Tolkien actually wrote for the period after LotR on the premise that Sauron had actually been destroyed for good has nearly all his soldier orcs falling into disarray and basically exterminating themselves. Ditto most of the feral mountain orcs as a consequence of their own descent from orcs 'made' by Sauron and any that weren't were exterminated by the twin sons of Elrond who had a pathological hatred of orcs anyway and had spent 500 odd years killing them on sight before the main event... 8) Aragorn and his crew also helped a bit but they were more interested in 'peacemaking' operation with the 'swarthy men' who had been drummed into service with the nasssty Dark Lord and apparently took one look at the big shiney sword and immediately repented and begged to become vassal states.
So complete genocide and/or arcane extinction is the official answer for the poor ole Orcs in Middle Earth... Discworld is a kinder place of course
Terry has borrowed quite heavily from Talkien, but then again Talkien has borrowed from Nordic mythology.... nothing in the World can be said to be totally original now! Terry has just put a twist on the view of these peoples form Middle Earth. He is not the only one to do this look here :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bored_of_the_Rings
Still He is good at it though!
UA..... may have to listen to the Audio Book again as I too thought it is one of the weaker books......but that is just my opinion and I am a Big Watch Fan. Nice to see more of the Wizards again though.....I give t a 7/10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bored_of_the_Rings
Still He is good at it though!
UA..... may have to listen to the Audio Book again as I too thought it is one of the weaker books......but that is just my opinion and I am a Big Watch Fan. Nice to see more of the Wizards again though.....I give t a 7/10
Hell I just lost a post links and all Adore Bored of the Rings BTW! :twisted:
Most fantasy writers borrow heavily from mythology of various kinds and you could argue very convincingly that there are no new stories 'cos the Greeks already defined the lot Middle Earth as a whole has Atlantean (ocean-consumed cultures), Celtic, Saxon, Greek philosophic and even Egyptian motifs (the grand architectual feats of the men of Westernesse like the Argonath and Orthanc) as well as Norse themes and others less familar
With Tolkien the bulk of his writing on Middle Earth was for purely academic development - his hobby in effect, but a lucrative one to some extent. The Hobbit and LotR were a result of an academic challenge between him and C S Lewis to write a publishable book about time travel and space travel respectively (not so much Narnia, but The Cosmic Trilogy - Lewis was a very biased Christian zealot ) and both of them cheated!
They, with their chums in their intellectual club The Inklings (HQ the Lamb and Flag in Oxford - The Prof liked his beer, tobacco and forest mushrooms in that order and made himself the template for hobbits and Tom Bombadil) kind of invented and formed 'mythopoeic' literature which is summed up in Tolkien's poem Mythopoeia (The wiki links are warped somehow - see mythopoeia in the wiki search anyway) penned as an ironic slap at Lewis who had very differing ideas about the genre. Tolkien's real interest was in ancient language however and he cobbled together about 4 distinct 'tongues' using elements from Welsh, Old Saxon and Gothic sources to the extent that the elven 'language' Sindarin is actually a working language and 'spoken' today and others keep philologists bedazzled and busy - see this site for Sindarin.
I think Terry and the Prof would have got along like a house on fire
Adore Bored of the Rings BTW! :twisted: Most fantasy writers borrow heavily from mythology of various kinds and you could argue very convincingly that there are no new stories 'cos the Greeks already defined the lot
Middle Earth as a whole has Atlantean (ocean-consumed cultures), Celtic, Saxon, Greek philosophic and even Egyptian motifs (the grand architectual feats of the men of Westernesse like the Argonath and Orthanc) as well as Norse themes and others less familarWith Tolkien the bulk of his writing on Middle Earth was for purely academic development - his hobby in effect, but a lucrative one to some extent. The Hobbit and LotR were a result of an academic challenge between him and C S Lewis to write a publishable book about time travel and space travel respectively (not so much Narnia, but The Cosmic Trilogy - Lewis was a very biased Christian zealot
) and both of them cheated!They, with their chums in their intellectual club The Inklings (HQ the Lamb and Flag in Oxford - The Prof liked his beer, tobacco and forest mushrooms in that order and made himself the template for hobbits and Tom Bombadil) kind of invented and formed 'mythopoeic' literature which is summed up in Tolkien's poem Mythopoeia (The wiki links are warped somehow - see mythopoeia in the wiki search anyway) penned as an ironic slap at Lewis who had very differing ideas about the genre. Tolkien's real interest was in ancient language however and he cobbled together about 4 distinct 'tongues' using elements from Welsh, Old Saxon and Gothic sources to the extent that the elven 'language' Sindarin is actually a working language and 'spoken' today and others keep philologists bedazzled and busy - see this site for Sindarin.
I think Terry and the Prof would have got along like a house on fire
Every book Terry writes IMO has a central message. It seems to me (sorry Terry if you are reading this and I am wrong) goes deeper into the argument that we need to be kinder to each other and in some way it seems to me there is a subtext that we shouldn't even create in literature beings who are totally evil without explaining why. Especially IMHO when the evil beings are creating by sentient evil but are treated as though they had a choice when in fact they didn't.
Does that make any sense or am i wittering?
Does that make any sense or am i wittering?
Yes it does make sense - I've played on several Tolkien RP sites and most people who play Orcs (very therapeutic not to have to be nice the whole time ) do play them sympathetically at their twisted core, whilst giving full rein to obnoxious and violent behaviour... :twisted: This has more to do with how orcs were 'made', on which the lore nazis constantly argue back and forth on whether it was Men or Elves who were corrupted and mutilated so horribly. The Prof himself never committed himself ( a very bad habit with him) but the Silmarillion comes down in favour of Elves, as apparently men weren't around until after the first few of the many battles in Beleriand so it had to be the Elves at first anyway...
Terry's villains normally have a redeeming quality here or there and you normally do get their side of things to 'judge' the wrongness of their being. The only villains in my view who have no plus points whatsovever are Vorbis (Small Gods) and Dios (Pyramids) and even then I can find some sympathy for them in their respective ends with the latter doomed to cycle eternally through time, and the former unable to find eternal rest because he can't believe in anything, not even himself.
On Discworld, Death himself, being real, impartial and, in most respects honourably merciful, is not really to be feared to our eyes and I think that has a lot to do with the appeal of Discworld as a place where most peoples/races are self-determining. There's actually very little true discrimination on there (well certainly not since Thud ) and when life is extinct they largely go to where they know deep down they deserve to go...
) do play them sympathetically at their twisted core, whilst giving full rein to obnoxious and violent behaviour... :twisted: This has more to do with how orcs were 'made', on which the lore nazis constantly argue back and forth on whether it was Men or Elves who were corrupted and mutilated so horribly. The Prof himself never committed himself ( a very bad habit with him) but the Silmarillion comes down in favour of Elves, as apparently men weren't around until after the first few of the many battles in Beleriand so it had to be the Elves at first anyway...Terry's villains normally have a redeeming quality here or there and you normally do get their side of things to 'judge' the wrongness of their being. The only villains in my view who have no plus points whatsovever are Vorbis (Small Gods) and Dios (Pyramids) and even then I can find some sympathy for them in their respective ends with the latter doomed to cycle eternally through time, and the former unable to find eternal rest because he can't believe in anything, not even himself.
On Discworld, Death himself, being real, impartial and, in most respects honourably merciful, is not really to be feared to our eyes and I think that has a lot to do with the appeal of Discworld as a place where most peoples/races are self-determining. There's actually very little true discrimination on there (well certainly not since Thud
) and when life is extinct they largely go to where they know deep down they deserve to go... 
