UA - Not Loving it and feeling like traitoress

[sheilaj]

Think I just had an epiphany.
I just finished re re re re re re (you get the picture) reading Carpe Jugulum. In in Granny Weatherwax says that there is only one sin and that is treating people as things.
Thinking over all of the books, I reckon this is a central message.
Orcs are treated as things in UA
Women are (kind of) treated as things in Equal Rites
Trolls are treated as things in Thud
The islanders are treated as things in Nation

what do you think?

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

I know what you mean sheilaj though I think its dangerous to look for too much of a unifying message in books written over suck a long time frame and primarily as entertainment/satire (I'm thinking especially of the earlier ones here), but there certainly are ideas that crop up repeatedly, taking responsibility is probably another one.

And welcome btw

@ the discussion about Orcs and evilness I think there's a basic difference between middle earth and discworld - middle earth is primarily "barbarian" the "good" races are just as happy to go out slaughtering any one not from their tribe even if they pose no immediate threat whereas discworld is primarily "civilised" - war and killing are generally to be avoided (Sam VImes is probably the epitome of this) (see The science of discworld 2 for Terry's definition of barbarian).

The problem with making villains too understandable is that we start to overlook the harm they do when we are to busy empathising wioth them.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

The problem with making villains too understandable is that we start to overlook the harm they do when we are to busy empathising wioth them.

That's my beef with Moist mostly - quite frankly he doesn't change at all in how he thinks or operates, he simply changes sides and carries on behaving and thinking his way out of trouble more or less as he always has. I think Mr. Pump does have an effect, as does Adorabelle, in making him listen to his conscience more and in seeing how his actions can be bad for other people in small and nasty ways (mainly because he lost Adorabelle her job) but there's very little difference in how he operates aside from motivation and that's hardly noble either as it becomes a matter of pride for him to 'beat' Gilt and be the top of the heap dazzlingly dynamic con artist, because that's what he still is, just working for Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork

 

[sheilaj]

The problem with making villains too understandable is that we start to overlook the harm they do when we are to busy empathising wioth them.

That's my beef with Moist mostly - quite frankly he doesn't change at all in how he thinks or operates, he simply changes sides and carries on behaving and thinking his way out of trouble more or less as he always has. I think Mr. Pump does have an effect, as does Adorabelle, in making him listen to his conscience more and in seeing how his actions can be bad for other people in small and nasty ways (mainly because he lost Adorabelle her job) but there's very little difference in how he operates aside from motivation and that's hardly noble either as it becomes a matter of pride for him to 'beat' Gilt and be the top of the heap dazzlingly dynamic con artist, because that's what he still is, just working for Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork

I reckon that is another central message.
"Where you stand isn't as important as which way you face"
Vetinari isn't "good" , neither is Granny Weatherwax or Vimes. Even Carrot can be nasty. What they do (and Moist learns to do it too) is use what they are for good and (again) not to see people as things. GW and Vimes aren't even altruistic in what they do...I am not sure about the Patrician but if he was. he'd never admit it.
That's the difference IMO between them and Gilt. They love the doing and "keep score" by their achievements, Gilt just loves to smash and grab.

before I retired from working in the NHS, I had a notice on my wall.
it said
"To get things done for people, it is necessary to love the doing; it is not necessary to love the people"

I agree to an extent about not looking for one message in books written over many years, but without intruding on Terry's private life too much, it seems to be a theme that is important to him and he can't not put it in his books, including the non DW ones. Its actually one of the things that i find attractive about him as an author in that he is a Brighton rock kind of guy.
Certain moral stances(sounds priggish but you know what i mean) are right through his core like rock.

 

[raisindot]

That's my beef with Moist mostly - quite frankly he doesn't change at all in how he thinks or operates, he simply changes sides and carries on behaving and thinking his way out of trouble more or less as he always has. I think Mr. Pump does have an effect, as does Adorabelle, in making him listen to his conscience more and in seeing how his actions can be bad for other people in small and nasty ways (mainly because he lost Adorabelle her job) but there's very little difference in how he operates aside from motivation and that's hardly noble either as it becomes a matter of pride for him to 'beat' Gilt and be the top of the heap dazzlingly dynamic con artist, because that's what he still is, just working for Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork

Do you have a similar 'beef' with CMOT Dibbler, who is essentially, as someone here put it, a unsuccessful version of Moist? Do you have a beef with Vetinari, who is, essentially, the "uber-moist," using the gentle art of politics and manipulation to hold on to power and guide the forces of the city? And isn't Vimes pulling a con on the city as well, assuming power and authority by creating the impression that the Watch is a lot more powerful than it really is and that it (and he) are the true "upholders" of the Law?

Life in Ankh-Morpork is one big con game, with people using power and commerce to one up each other. Moist is at least honest enough to admit that he is a con man at heart. But at least he was able to find a moral center in Going Postal that inspired him to "return" the money he stole to use for nobler ends. Indeed, by the beginning of "Making Money" he has become so respectable and honorable that nearly all of his actions are done not to enrich himself personally but for the benefit of the city.

In fact, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Vetinari is secretly grooming Moist to become the next Patrician. The only quality Moist lacks is a penchant for violence. But, then again, maybe in the Century of the Anchovy this kind of tyranny may no longer be needed.

J-I-B

 

[sheilaj]

That's my beef with Moist mostly - quite frankly he doesn't change at all in how he thinks or operates, he simply changes sides and carries on behaving and thinking his way out of trouble more or less as he always has. I think Mr. Pump does have an effect, as does Adorabelle, in making him listen to his conscience more and in seeing how his actions can be bad for other people in small and nasty ways (mainly because he lost Adorabelle her job) but there's very little difference in how he operates aside from motivation and that's hardly noble either as it becomes a matter of pride for him to 'beat' Gilt and be the top of the heap dazzlingly dynamic con artist, because that's what he still is, just working for Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork

Do you have a similar 'beef' with CMOT Dibbler, who is essentially, as someone here put it, a unsuccessful version of Moist? Do you have a beef with Vetinari, who is, essentially, the "uber-moist," using the gentle art of politics and manipulation to hold on to power and guide the forces of the city? And isn't Vimes pulling a con on the city as well, assuming power and authority by creating the impression that the Watch is a lot more powerful than it really is and that it (and he) are the true "upholders" of the Law?

Life in Ankh-Morpork is one big con game, with people using power and commerce to one up each other. Moist is at least honest enough to admit that he is a con man at heart. But at least he was able to find a moral center in Going Postal that inspired him to "return" the money he stole to use for nobler ends. Indeed, by the beginning of "Making Money" he has become so respectable and honorable that nearly all of his actions are done not to enrich himself personally but for the benefit of the city.

In fact, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Vetinari is secretly grooming Moist to become the next Patrician. The only quality Moist lacks is a penchant for violence. But, then again, maybe in the Century of the Anchovy this kind of tyranny may no longer be needed.

J-I-B

but that's my point They DON'T use it to one up on each other. they use it for the common good. I don't think either that the Patrician has a penchant for violence...I think he thinks if he has to use violence, he's failed

 

[poohcarrot]

Anyone who disagrees with J-I-B is OK in my book.

Totally agree with you sheilaj.

PS When the 5th Elephant discussion starts, get stuck in sheilaj.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

JIB - Whoever said CMOT is like a not so clever unsuccessful Moist has it completely wrong. CMOT is a service industry wannabe-enterepreneur - not a chameleon practiced in lying and cheating, and living off other people's weaknesses (whether positive or negative). All Moist does is get 'rich' on other people's efforts and he doesn't really care who gets hurts. Or least not until now as Adorabelle and Mr Pump have begun to make him see that he should think of the consequences of his 'games'.

CMOT sells things that he thinks people will want, that he thinks will make him rich. He's giving them something. Something ropey and tawdry yeah, but they didn't have to buy it. What he doesn't do is dress up dreams and hopes and aspirations in sheep's clothing that have no real substance, or set out to deliberately take money (or whatever) for nothing - or not very much that's useful.

As for Moist being the next Patrician It's laughable - he hasn't got the guts, or the motivation to really get his hands dirty/play hard ball. Or indeed the ice-cold intellect to keep his eye on the ball, because he hasn't got the killer instinct - he is a good juggler/magician though. In other words he's good at misdirecting... Reacher Gilt certainly had the killer instinct in spades, but he's wasn't clever or cunning enough to be a real threat to Vetinari for long.

Vetinari is still an assassin, except he rarely kills people because people are his tools or sometimes weapons, whether they're good, bad or indifferent. So yes - he's a user on a global scale and his motivation is to make things work just well enough to be balanced so people can get by as much as they deserve without have to descend into barbarism where the strongest, meanest and most brutal always come out on top. Vetinari, like Granny or Vimes, guards the edges - his edges are just more cerebral, whilst understanding pure passion and that sometimes there has to be an inexplicable, which may or may not come from peoples spirit.

Moist mostly just thinks about how he can do something with the least effort and harm to himself - he has a very long way to go before he's Patrician material

 

[sheilaj]

Do we know that Vetinari ever actually killed anybody?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Yep - but way, way back in Night Watch before he was the Patrician and he had a contract to fulfil on the then Patrician Lord Winder (who actually died of fright) but he also kills some of the Unmentionables and in the battle at the barricades.

I don't think he ever formally 'graduated' from the Guild, but you do find out why Lord Downey hates him so much

 

[sheilaj]

you are right, he saves Vimes life in Night Watch.
btw, not sure why my posts are duplicating, i only post them once, honest

 

[sheilaj]

Well? :twisted: How about more ethnically... tolerant?

Nah, I just think they are more pragmatic
...like the Ferenghi who have never had pogrom or a world war because there is no profit in it.

 

[Tonyblack]

you are right, he saves Vimes life in Night Watch.
btw, not sure why my posts are duplicating, i only post them once, honest

I've deleted the double posts.

 

[sheilaj]

thank you

 

[raisindot]

CMOT sells things that he thinks people will want, that he thinks will make him rich. He's giving them something. Something ropey and tawdry yeah, but they didn't have to buy it. What he doesn't do is dress up dreams and hopes and aspirations in sheep's clothing that have no real substance, or set out to deliberately take money (or whatever) for nothing - or not very much that's useful.

CMOT might not be as smart as Moist, look at his various "professions" through the series. As a producer of the "Moving Pictures." Tawdry ropey, dreams designed to take money for something not particularly useful. As producer of the "Music with Rocks" band. Tawdry, ropey music with (according to the nobs) no real substance. As editor of the tabloid competitor to the Ankh Morpork Times: Selling tawdry lies and useless information. Even as a "sausage in a bun" salesman he's conning people into buying the 'dream' of whatever it is that can only be fulfilled through a sausage. Moist doesn't con people to get rich; it's a side perk. CMOT cons people to get rich, but never get the cash. If CMOT were smart enough to pull off the kind of "Hide the Lady" tricks Moist is so good at, he'd be there in a flash. The only difference between them is motivation and skill level. CMOT does it to "make money fast." Moist does it for the fun of the game. [/quote]

As for Moist being the next Patrician It's laughable - he hasn't got the guts, or the motivation to really get his hands dirty/play hard ball. Or indeed the ice-cold intellect to keep his eye on the ball, because he hasn't got the killer instinct - he is a good juggler/magician though.

You make the assumption that the next patrician has to follow directly in the footsteps of Vetinari and possess is same qualities. However, it's quite clear that Vetinari is a very different kind of Patrician than his predecessors, who ruled with a blunt and vulgar fist rather than with Vetinari's finesse for Machiavellian manipulation. Who is to say that the next kind of patrician may be, at heart, a blatant con man who rules not through fear and threat of violence by convincing people to buy into the dream? At the end of Making Money, Vetinari clearly recognizes that Moist has this quality. One might think that Vetinari is a bit jealous, but I interpret it as Vetinari thinking about the future. He dropped Moist into the Lavish pit to see if he had what it took to survive. Now that he did, and once again changed the way Ankh-Morpork thinks about itself economically, Vetinari realizes that he needs to put Moist through yet another test--becoming the city's new tax collector. To me, these are all grooming actions. Moist has become Vetinari's unwitting protege--that's the con Vetinari is pulling over HIM.

J-I-B

 

[Penfold]

I would just like to give my ha'pence worth about Moist's character if I may.

Going Postal and Making Money alluded to the fact that most of Moist's past cons used the victim's greed against them (selling them what they thought to be $5000 diamond ring for a mere $50, for example). His targets always thought they were swindling Moist and rarely discovered that they had been ripped off themselves. They were hardly innocent parties to the transactions and my impression was that he deliberately targeted people who 'got what they deserved'. His only real failing was not realizing that there is no such thing as a victimless crime (the collapsed bank that Adora Dearheart worked for, for example).

William looked down at the tray. If Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler was selling hot sausages, it was a sure sign that one of his more ambitious enterprises had gone wahoonie-shaped yet again. Selling hot sausages from a tray was by way of being the ground state of Dibbler's existance, from which he constantly sought to extricate himself and back to which he constantly returned when his latest venture went all runny. Which is a shame, because Dibbler was an extremely good hot sausage salesman. He had to be, given the nature of his sausages.

As far as CMOTD is concerned, I don't think he is deliberately or necessarily trying to con people or sell them the dream. In theory, his products should be very successful at making him fortunes (moving pictures, music with rocks in, etc.). All of his business aspirations have been founded with a degree of legitimacy. Unfortunately, it is his overly ambitious nature (a 1000 elephants, for example) coupled with bizarrely unlucky circumstances which conspire to force him back to selling sausages in a bun. If they had motorized vehicles in Discworld, he would be selling the Sinclair C5 whilst everybody else was selling cars

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Exactly. The 'dream' products - moving pictures and the music with rocks in business is not something CMOT could have made a success of indefinitely - but they're not 'nothing'. The clicks and the band were fads to which A-M regularly succumbs and everyone wanted to get involved in that. What do we get when we stump up to see some daft film? We want to see it and it's a straight purchase of 90 minutes of dreaming and not always value for money, but you are getting something for your money. Ditto going to a gig. So it's not tricking them with diamond rings and in reality giving them nothing at all, often not knowing they've been tricked. Its all a game to him and it's one where he treating people with contempt more than half the time

I'm afraid I haven't read Making Money so I can't argue on Moist's suitability for greatness after Going Postal - I just don't like him much and his 'charm's' not charming to me. Vetinari's auditioning him maybe, but I still don't think Moist's got the temperament for it, although he may have the charisma.

 

[kieray]

i've got to say i agree with j-i-b as vimes said it's not a sausage you buy from cmot it's the dream of a sausage why do you think he makes most his money on mustard

 

[raisindot]

[quote="Jan Van QuirmI'm afraid I haven't read Making Money so I can't argue on Moist's suitability for greatness after Going Postal - I just don't like him much and his 'charm's' not charming to me. Vetinari's auditioning him maybe, but I still don't think Moist's got the temperament for it, although he may have the charisma. [/quote]

Well, then, you're not getting the complete story. Read it, and you'll see a very different Moist--one who has been totally co-opted by "the system" and become--dare it be said--"respectable." He still has the grifters' gifts, but at the start of the novel anyway, he has put those aside for the mundane world of commerce. He is even being considered for the head of the Merchant's Guild! Even though it's not nearly as good as "Going Postal," when you read it I think the points I'm making will become clearer.



J-I-B

 

[sheilaj]

I don't think that Moist is being groomed as a successor to the Patrician, and i don't think the Patrician sees him as a successor. I think its his motivation, forward planning and self awareness rather than his skills that are lacking. I think that like Vimes, Carrot, Leonardo, he's a useful and entertaining tool.

Reacher Gilt, however....but sadly he didn't believe in angels.