Unpopular Discworld opinions?

[hadas7]

Hi, everyone. This is a bit of a risky topic to start by a relative newbe (though occasional reader/stalker for the past 3 years). I searched the board and could not find that a similar topic had ever been started. So here goes:

Do you ever find your tastes at odds on a particular point with the apparent general consensus on Discworld books or characters? If so, share here. Here are mine.

Characters:
I love Carrot.
I like Vimes, but not as much as most people probably. He gripes and broods too much—a little whiny sometimes.
I like Susan.
I have a special fondness for Eskarina Smith, and I’m dying to know who her son it. I don’t think this was ever resolved. (This might be more of a comment rather than an unpopular opinion though.)

Books:
I love Moving Pictures. One of my favorite DW books. I love it every time I re-read it.
I’m not that fond of Wyrd Sisters.
This may not actually be unpopular, but I really disliked the subplot with that kind-of-werewolf and Angua in The Fifth Elephant. That he would be represented as a kind of rival for Carrot kind of creeped me out.

I think that’s pretty much it… since so much of Discworld is fantastic it’s kind of hard to find things to disagree on with others, I think.

 

[Molokov]

I'll throw some of my book opinions in here:

I didn't enjoy Small Gods all that much when I first read it, I think the second half dragged a lot. Also, having grown up in a religion but not one that seems as strict as the ones being parodied, a lot of those parodies went over my head.
Same applies to Hogfather - all the parodies of Christmas traditions went over my head because I never celebrated Christmas growing up.

Many consider Night Watch to be Terry's finest book - but to me, the story is too dark. I never really saw much humour in it until my local Discworld theatre company staged it - they managed to make many of the jokes shine through. To me, the best books are earlier in the run (Feet of Clay era) where there's a good balance of a solid plot and lots of light humour. Around the Carpe Jugulum mark, Terry's stories/plots started getting darker which I thought was a bad move.

Of course, on later reflection (and as I got older) I enjoy the depth of the stories, but sometimes I still miss the silliness and light humour of the earlier books.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'm not a great fan of Carrot. Terry made him too perfect - like Superman without the Kryptonite. A character like that cannot learn and develop.

I like Vimes because he has flaws. He is driven by his principles and wants to make his world a better place. Sadly, towards the end of the books, he was becoming a little too Carrot-like and unlikely to make a mistake.

It is clear to me that there are certain characters that Terry enjoyed writing - I think he put a lot of himself or people he cared about into them. Vimes is one as are Angua, Granny and Tiffany. The character point of view, especially with Vimes and Angua, changes when he wrote for these. He gets under their skin and you see through their eyes rather than the writer's.

Small Gods is still one of my favourites. I used to really like Moving Pictures, but don't enjoy it so much now. There are a ton of movie references, but the story itself doesn't ultimately go anywhere. Soul Music does a better job of plot development and has all the references.

I don't hate any of the books or any of the characters. I did get a bit fed up of the Igors, but eventually learned to like them.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm. I wasn't really sure what to think of any of the books until the second read-through. Like hadas, I found that a lot of the jokes went over my head - particularly Reaper Man, Hogfather and Small Gods.

That said, I thought Night Watch was terrific, especially because of Vimes's reflections - for instance, why can't ordinary people take the law into their own hands in a genuine crisis, like the one described in NW? Who are 'The People' that both revolutionaries and politicians seem to be so fond of mentioning (e.g. "We're acting in the interest of 'The People'")? And so on.

Don't get me wrong - I love Terry's light-hearted humour and puns, but I also like it when the plot stops for a minute to allow a character to think about what's going on. It's like the 'soliloquy moments' in Shakespeare, the most famous of which are Hamlet's "To be or not to be" or Macbeth's "Is this a dagger I see before me?", etc.

 

[=Tamar]

I'm not a great fan of Carrot. Terry made him too perfect - like Superman without the Kryptonite. A character like that cannot learn and develop.

I'm not a great fan of Carrot either, but for a different reason. Carrot has major flaws. He's just fairly good at hiding them, until you think about what he actually does instead of what people say about him. He's a teenager with a charismatic power that lets him get away with almost anything. He learns very fast to tell lies in a way that makes it hard to prove, even in the first book when he chooses to misinterpret "charge" as an order to attack. He's manipulative almost from the beginning, and he gets worse in every book. Vetinari is trying to train him, but the older Carrot gets, the harder it is to teach him. He shows off in Jingo. When he goes to Uberwald in the Fifth Elephant, he abandons his post, and Vetinari regretfully promotes Colon in order to demonstrate to Carrot that he doesn't have as much charisma as he thinks he has. When Carrot returns and finds out that everyone is more afraid of what Vimes will say than of anything he might do, he claims that everyone in the Watch has vowed to serve him personally for life, with no provision for quitting the job (even though he himself essentially quit the job without notice and there has never been any objection to Watchmen retiring). His claim is a flat out lie; we've been told over and over that the Oath specifically is to the Law, not to the crown, not even to the Patrician or the City. Furthermore, he uses it to threaten Nobby, who I'm quite certain never took the oath in any form. Carrot is also astoundingly arrogant - he has the nerve to claim that he knows how wolves behave, to Angua, who knows far better the difference between real wolves and werewolves. Vimes already knows how Carrot lies; Angua is slowly catching on, but she is in denial.

 

[RathDarkblade]

***APOLOGIES... SPOILERS. PLEASE DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ "THE FIFTH ELEPHANT". THANK YOU***

Hmm... your POV is interesting, =Tamar. I always thought that in TFE,

Spoiler

Carrot's bullying of Colon and Nobby towards the end was an act - an act that he put on in order to scare the two so that the Watch will be back in proper order by the time Vimes returns. Otherwise, as Colon predicts, "Mister Vimes will go completely librarian-poo" (which I always thought was a brilliant bowdlerisation of... well, you know).

I'm also not sure that Carrot goes AWOL without telling anyone. He does tell

Spoiler

Vetinari, who asks him - very pointedly, and several times - if this is really something he wishes to do. Vetinari could probably order Carrot not to go after Angua, but he chooses not to; this is probably done to teach Carrot a lesson, although I didn't think it was to show Carrot that he is not as charismatic as he thought he is.

Rather, I thought that Vetinari's decision is because

Spoiler

he wants to show Carrot the importance of choosing duty over what your heart dictates.

Vetinari is very big about doing your duty by the City, as you know, and perhaps he wants to

Spoiler

show Carrot the consequences of neglecting one's duty

- which is why he promotes Colon.

A similar dilemma -

Spoiler

doing your duty vs. following your heart

- happens to Vimes in Jingo. You know the bit I mean - where

Spoiler

he grabs the wrong imp-diary as he falls into the right Trouser of Time.

It's a terrific scene, I might add.

But back to Carrot. It is very true that Carrot is

Spoiler

arrogant

in TFE. He either thinks - or perhaps some readers are led to think, based on previous books - that he is

Spoiler

indestructible

, and Pterry shows us (in subtle and not-so-subtle ways) that he is not (e.g.

Spoiler

nearly freezing to death, or getting his arm broken by Wolfgang

). No wonder that

Spoiler

Angua thinks that he is "stupid".

But then, thinking that you are

Spoiler

indestructible

often goes hand-in-hand with being a teenager. Perhaps Carrot learns from the experience.

All in all, I am ambivalent about Carrot in TFE, because

Spoiler

he thinks and acts like a spoiled brat,

which is not at all how I pictured him previously. You may notice that after TFE,

Spoiler

there are fewer and fewer Watch-scenes, and particularly those featuring Carrot.

Perhaps this is deliberate on Pterry's part; after all, he did say that he wanted to get away from established characters, and to try new things. Hence

Spoiler

the death of Cohen and the Silver Horde

in The Last Hero, and the receding into the background of

Spoiler

the Watch and the Witches,

particularly in Moist books and Aching books.

(And I can't believe I just referred to them as Moist books and Aching books. Oh well...) *shrug*

Thoughts?

 

[hadas7]

Yup, like I said, me loving Carrot is an unpopular opinion. I think that he started out perfect because Pratchett was parodying the Lost Heir to the Throne a la Aragorn, but chose to keep it straight instead of doing an actual parody. So he had Carrot actually BE everything that a King SHOULD BE instead of going the parody path like he did in previous and subsequent books for other characters (see Nigel, the hapless swordsman in Sourcery.) When Terry got more interested in the more complex problems that a character like Vimes is better suited to tackle, Carrot kind of fell by the sideways. He tried to have Carrot be more flawed (actually "de-volve") and exhibits more negative characteristics, but if you don't like him perfect naturally won't like that either!

For some reason I had a hard time starting Night Watch, and also Reaper Man, and it took me years to finish them. But once I did I liked them both, especially Reaper Man.

Any clues about Esk's son, anyone??

 

[Tonyblack]

Any clues about Esk's son, anyone??

Nope - we may never find out
.

 

[raisindot]

Hadas7, I take particular pride in being a "contrarion" on this board. I've found myself in spirited and occasionally nasty debates (which all end up fine, kiss kiss, make up) the merits of different books and characters. Here is where my views most often clash with the majority.

1. I can't stand Rincewind or the wizards books. I think The Colour or Magic and The Light Fantastic are among the worst of Pterry's books. He tries too hard to be the Douglas Adams of fantasy. Rincewind is a one note character, the Arthur Dent of the DW, there mainly to play the straight man in an endless, meaningless series of travelogues. Pterry realized this as well, which as why, he largely ditched Rincewind as a main character in the straight fiction series.

2. I always publicly stated that Pyramids was the worst DW book. I used to do this mainly to PO a certain member who, regrettably, left the forum. I did hate it the first reading, but after reading it a second time I liked it much more as purely comic novel. Still not one of my favorites, but much preferred over nearly all of the Wizards books.

3. I've taken a huge amount of flack for suggesting that Pterry's last non YA-books, starting with Unseen Academicals, represented a significant decline in his writing abilities which I attributed to the effects of Alzheimer's.To me, Snuff, Raising Steam and [iThe Shepherd's Crown[/i] are so inferior in style and quality than everything that came before them that I really wonder whether someone else was actually helping Pterry write these books. People really didn't like me saying this, but, as I always said, as a writer Pterry would never have wanted anyone to take the kid gloves off in terms of criticizing his work just because of his failing narrative abilities.

But everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's here. It would be a very dull place is everyone felt the same away about every book and character. For the most part, when people disagree with others they express their views from a literary standpoint, rather than descending into ad hominem attacks. That's what makes this place much, much different and much better than just about any other special interest site I frequent.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Seeing as Esk can

Spoiler

manipulate time,

maybe Esk's son is

Spoiler

Coin, whom she sends back in time.

:twisted:

Or maybe I'm talking rubbish...

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Hadas7, I take particular pride in being a "contrarion" on this board. I've found myself in spirited and occasionally nasty debates (which all end up fine, kiss kiss, make up) the merits of different books and characters. Here is where my views most often clash with the majority.

1. I can't stand Rincewind or the wizards books. I think The Colour or Magic and The Light Fantastic are among the worst of Pterry's books. He tries too hard to be the Douglas Adams of fantasy. Rincewind is a one note character, the Arthur Dent of the DW, there mainly to play the straight man in an endless, meaningless series of travelogues. Pterry realized this as well, which as why, he largely ditched Rincewind as a main character in the straight fiction series.

2. I always publicly stated that Pyramids was the worst DW book. I used to do this mainly to PO a certain member who, regrettably, left the forum. I did hate it the first reading, but after reading it a second time I liked it much more as purely comic novel. Still not one of my favorites, but much preferred over nearly all of the Wizards books.

3. I've taken a huge amount of flack for suggesting that Pterry's last non YA-books, starting with Unseen Academicals, represented a significant decline in his writing abilities which I attributed to the effects of Alzheimer's.To me, Snuff, Raising Steam and [iThe Shepherd's Crown[/i] are so inferior in style and quality than everything that came before them that I really wonder whether someone else was actually helping Pterry write these books. People really didn't like me saying this, but, as I always said, as a writer Pterry would never have wanted anyone to take the kid gloves off in terms of criticizing his work just because of his failing narrative abilities.

But everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's here. It would be a very dull place is everyone felt the same away about every book and character. For the most part, when people disagree with others they express their views from a literary standpoint, rather than descending into ad hominem attacks. That's what makes this place much, much different and much better than just about any other special interest site I frequent.

Oh' rasindot if you had been at the memorial service for Terry you may have learned a lot still if that is your uniformed opinion......

 

[hadas7]

raisindot, I like to hear others' opinions about books even if I disagree with them. When I was in my 20s I tended to be extremely opinionated and outspoken about arts and literature, just like you. However, I mellowed A LOT over the years when it comes to works of art and literature and I don't mind disagreements. Also, sometimes you can be very critical about what you actually DO love because you love some things about it and wish it was better in other ways. One thing we can all agree, I think, that we all love Terry and treasure his wisdom and humor.

I actually agree with you a bit about the Rincewind books not being the best of DW, though they get better (esp. Interesting Times), and I have grown very fond of Rincewind the last few years. I do enjoy Pyramids as a spoof on Ancient Egypt (I'm a huge fan of ancient history and myths) though I do agree it doesn't fit so comfortably into the DW canon-- like some of the early books, actually. But since we don't get to visit those "Middle Eastern" areas of DW a lot I think it makes for an interesting setting.

Here's another-- While I rate Small Gods quite highly, I always find that the Ancient-Greece like atmosphere of Ephebe doesn't quite mesh well with the Inquisition-era-Church setting of the Omnians. You COULD argue that it reflects the prosecutions of pagans and heretic sects by early Christianity once the creed was agreed on in the Council of Nicea in the early 300's, and that Ephebe reflects not Classical Greece but LATE Greece under the Romans ("Eureka!"Archimedes lived in the 200s). Still, something about those two together just doesn't feel right to me, even if this IS a fantasy book... Terry meshed different eras together as his fancy took him (I never saw a world speed through history so quickly as DW-- from the Barbarian/Medieval early books to Victorian era late books!) but for some reason it's that particular clash of settings that doesn't sit quite easy for me.

Tony and Rath- that's too bad about Esk's unknown son...

Spoiler

Coin is a VERY interesting possibility, when did she send him back in time...? Also, I can't imagine Esk and Coin's father getting together... I always like to think she got together with Simon! I have a soft spot for those two because Equal Rites was the first DW book I actually LOVED and got me into the series (after starting with Color of Magic and Light Fantastic.)

And oh goodness, one I forgot!
Wintersmith is my favorite Tiffany novel, and the best one of the Tiffany books in my opinion. It's the only one with just the right balance of poetry, comedy and plot-- I adore the take on the Persephone and Summer/Winter myths! Though the finest moment of the series is still the ending of Wee Free Men when Tiffany

Spoiler

calls Thunder and Lightning.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Tony and Rath- that's too bad about Esk's unknown son...

Spoiler

Coin is a VERY interesting possibility, when did she send him back in time...? Also, I can't imagine Esk and Coin's father getting together... I always like to think she got together with Simon! I have a soft spot for those two because Equal Rites was the first DW book I actually LOVED and got me into the series (after starting with Color of Magic and Light Fantastic.)

And oh goodness, one I forgot!
Wintersmith is my favorite Tiffany novel, and the best one of the Tiffany books in my opinion. It's the only one with just the right balance of poetry, comedy and plot-- I adore the take on the Persephone and Summer/Winter myths! Though the finest moment of the series is still the ending of Wee Free Men when Tiffany

Spoiler

calls Thunder and Lightning.

Hadas, I was only being facetious - and talking off the top of my head - when I speculated that Esk's son would have been

Spoiler

Coin.

Yes, I can't really see Esk and

Spoiler

Ipslore the Red

hitting it off, much less having a baby. Then again, we also don't know who

Spoiler

Coin's mother

would have been. Just imagine it was Esk? That would DEFINITELY be a bombshell. :twisted:

I agree that Wintersmith is a great Tiffany novel, although I always thought that the Cunning Man was a much more frightening villain than the Wintersmith. To me, the Wintersmith as a character was naive, innocent - almost pathetic in his naivete - someone who would almost be beneath Tiffany's attention, if it weren't for the fact that he was the personification of Winter. OTOH, the Cunning Man - or, indeed, the Hiver (whom he resembles) - are much scarier as villains.

OTOH, I agree about the mythological aspects that Pterry touches on when writing the Tiffany novels. I also loved his take on the winter/summer dichotomy and the Persephone legend - and I cracked up laughing when Tiffany had Fertile Feet!!! Oh $deity$, how embarrassing for a 14-year-old young witch. But also a little... cool. (Please pardon the pun...)

 

[=Tamar]

Coin's mother can't have been Esk.

Spoiler

Coin's mother definitely died. Esk is still alive.

 

[=Tamar]

***APOLOGIES... SPOILERS. PLEASE DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ "THE FIFTH ELEPHANT". THANK YOU***

I always thought that in TFE,

Spoiler

Carrot's bullying of Colon and Nobby towards the end was an act - an act that he put on in order to scare the two so that the Watch will be back in proper order by the time Vimes returns. Otherwise, as Colon predicts, "Mister Vimes will go completely librarian-poo" (which I always thought was a brilliant bowdlerisation of... well, you know).

Carrot has always had that tendency to want to use his supposed authority as a Watchman. Almost his first act as a Watchman was to begin lecturing people about normal, legitimate behavior for Ankh-Morpork. He even tried to arrest the Patrician based on an obsolete law.

Spoiler

His bullying of Colon and Nobby was not an act. He could simply have said to go ask the ones who quit - who had every right to do so - to please come back because Vimes will be returning soon and will be disappointed. They probably would have returned. However, he chose to use a power play, and a totally unjustified one, based on a lie about the oath.

I'm also not sure that Carrot goes AWOL without telling anyone. He does tell

Spoiler

Vetinari, who asks him - very pointedly, and several times - if this is really something he wishes to do. Vetinari could probably order Carrot not to go after Angua, but he chooses not to; this is probably done to teach Carrot a lesson, although I didn't think it was to show Carrot that he is not as charismatic as he thought he is.

Rather, I thought that Vetinari's decision is because

Spoiler

he wants to show Carrot the importance of choosing duty over what your heart dictates.

Vetinari is very big about doing your duty by the City, as you know, and perhaps he wants to

Spoiler

show Carrot the consequences of neglecting one's duty

- which is why he promotes Colon.

I didn't say Carrot left without telling anyone. I recall that I said he abandoned his post. Vimes left him in charge, and he left without even choosing a successor. He assumed that his charisma would mean that everyone would continue to do their jobs as if he were still there. Vetinari deliberately, and with regret, chose an interim successor who

Spoiler

would inevitably fail, so that the disaster would be as obvious as possible. The only reason for doing that would be to demonstrate to Carrot what happens when there is no designated competent successor. Nobby would have done better - he's the only one loyal enough to stay despite everything - and Vetinari knew that, and deliberately chose Colon, knowing what would happen

.

It is very true that Carrot is

Spoiler

arrogant

in TFE. He either thinks - or perhaps some readers are led to think, based on previous books - that he is

Spoiler

indestructible

, and Pterry shows us (in subtle and not-so-subtle ways) that he is not (e.g.

Spoiler

nearly freezing to death, or getting his arm broken by Wolfgang

). No wonder that

Spoiler

Angua thinks that he is "stupid".

But then, thinking that you are

Spoiler

indestructible

often goes hand-in-hand with being a teenager. Perhaps Carrot learns from the experience.

All in all, I am ambivalent about Carrot in TFE, because

Spoiler

he thinks and acts like a spoiled brat,

which is not at all how I pictured him previously. You may notice that after TFE,

Spoiler

there are fewer and fewer Watch-scenes, and particularly those featuring Carrot.

Perhaps this is deliberate on Pterry's part; after all, he did say that he wanted to get away from established characters, and to try new things.

I think that Pterry wanted to show that Carrot was exactly what even a fairly good king was likely to be in that era and given Carrot's upbringing (in a mine that had to be run with firm command by the mining supervisor because of the inherent dangers). After that he had done what he intended with the character.

 

[raisindot]

Here's another-- While I rate Small Gods quite highly, I always find that the Ancient-Greece like atmosphere of Ephebe doesn't quite mesh well with the Inquisition-era-Church setting of the Omnians. You COULD argue that it reflects the prosecutions of pagans and heretic sects by early Christianity once the creed was agreed on in the Council of Nicea in the early 300's, and that Ephebe reflects not Classical Greece but LATE Greece under the Romans ("Eureka!"Archimedes lived in the 200s). Still, something about those two together just doesn't feel right to me, even if this IS a fantasy book... Terry meshed different eras together as his fancy took him (I never saw a world speed through history so quickly as DW-- from the Barbarian/Medieval early books to Victorian era late books!) but for some reason it's that particular clash of settings that doesn't sit quite easy for me.

This "mash up" didn't bother me. Pterry didn't "literally" import a roundworld history into his alternate universe; he cherrypicked the elements of cultures that either allowed for his thematic points to be made or offered the best opportunities for humot. I mean you can't demand historical accuracy for a fictional world, can you?

 

[=Tamar]

We certainly don't have accuracy and consistency for our own world. If we did, we wouldn't have had to invent the flush toilet three times, or domesticate cats at least twice. Not to mention having to rediscover electricity and relearn even simple geometry.

 

[hadas7]

Tamar: yup, it's just at the age when I first read the book I didn't have such a nuanced view of history and that impression stayed with me and can't quite be overturned.

raisindot: It's definitely all Roundworld's fault for getting history wrong again when channeling Discworld

But to refer to both your answers, it's not that I ever expected actual historical accuracy from a fantasy series-- it's just that when it comes to distinct aspects of a society which are kind of-sort of characteristic of rather distinct eras of our world (Classical and/or Hellenistic Greek Philosophers, 500 BCE - ~early CE & Inquisition, a word normally associated with late Medieval & Early Renaissance), that they are harder to disassociate with these eras than smaller details like whether AM has modern toilets. It was probably the word "quisition" that did it, however, since it is associated with a later era even though prosecution of heresies certainly existed in the early Church which the Church of Om seems to resemble.

Had I first read the book today I would probably have thought "Hmm, Hellenistic Alexandria circa 300 AD" and the setting would not have felt so incongruent. But first impressions seem hard to over ride.

 

[MrsWizzard]

Rincewind is absolutely my favorite character (shocking, I know) and his books are by far my favorites. I feel that's often an unpopular opinion among the DW crowd.

 

[Tonyblack]

Coin's mother can't have been Esk.

Spoiler

Coin's mother definitely died. Esk is still alive.

We also know that Esk can time travel. I had a thought about this today and it occurred to me that if Esk can time travel then her son could be anyone in the books. And then I remembered a comment by a Discworld character that his mother left before he was born . . . just saying.