Vetinari
- Thread starter alicenanjing
- Start date
Oberon said:
TiffanyAching said:
I don't think anyone else *Should* take over, but I think he'd name Moist VonLipwig as his succesor as he would be crooked enough to keep the city in order 
Aww.... I don't know how to do the animation 
Nutt for Patrician? He certainly has the brains for it, and he would certainly have the know-how to manipulate the city and all the people who have a say in how the city is run, but he's an orc on a mission, and that mission does not take him to Ankh-Morpork, but to Uberwald and to whatever desolate mountains the wretched members of his race have taken refuge on. My hat is off to him, but I don't think we'll see him in the Oblong Office any time soon, except as an ambassador, perhaps.
I know, I read some of the Latest Books thread. And I posted my last reply mostly to be cheeky, but the way I see it, someone like Nutt trying to become Patrician would have two and a half strikes against him from the start simply because he's an orc and, as such, would have to endlessly overcome, every day, the associations that the name "orc" has in people's heads, in other words, prove over and over again that he is not in the habit of unscrewing people's heads for them. Not that Nutt would ever try to get the job, I already said why he would not be interested. But Nutt in the Oblong Office would be much the same as an Afghanistan-born Muslim man becoming president of the US. Can't see that happening any time soon, no matter how "flawless" he is.
Of course, and I can be as politically correct as the next person. It isn't a flaw, just a huge PR drawback. As for being a different species now... well, they aren't, not until Nutt completes his life's work, not until he manages to heal a whole people and recast it in a different mold. And that's a job so monumental that a mere "flawless" character may not be equal to it, it needs someone like Moses or something, complete with burning bush.
A
He's a character I didn't expect coming from a writer with Sir Terry's skills. Even if one would want to go and take his Alzheimer's into account, a character such as this is something you usually stop writing once you reach a certain level of practice/skill. (Unless you write such a character on purpose, for mocking something)
He's a classical Mary Sue. He succeeds at everything. Even when he 'fails' it gets turned into a victory for him by the story. There are scenes that serve no other purpose than to list more of his skills, which will never be mentioned or needed again later in the story. Everything he does is perfect, outstanding.
I can see what the story was heading for:
A character full of self-doubt and self-hatred who believes he has to have a gargantuan amount of skills to be helpful to others and thereby find worth.
But the execution of it... It's over-the-top in a negative way (YMMV). There never seems to be the option of him failing. Or at least the possibility of him to just do good work instead of perfect.
He's a classical Mary Sue. He succeeds at everything. Even when he 'fails' it gets turned into a victory for him by the story. There are scenes that serve no other purpose than to list more of his skills, which will never be mentioned or needed again later in the story. Everything he does is perfect, outstanding.
I can see what the story was heading for:
A character full of self-doubt and self-hatred who believes he has to have a gargantuan amount of skills to be helpful to others and thereby find worth.
But the execution of it... It's over-the-top in a negative way (YMMV). There never seems to be the option of him failing. Or at least the possibility of him to just do good work instead of perfect.
Well, if Nutt was so perfect, why did he run away to mommy (I mean Lady Margolotta) as soon as he found out who he was? His friends had to rush after him and reassure him that it's all right, not everyone hates him, look, we love you! Otherwise he'd have given up everything and let his team down.
And I've been meaning to point out something else, as well. Someone said that Ponder Stibbons is ridiculed, in UA, because when Nutt comes back we are told that Ponder was incapable of training the team in Nutt's absence. That's not true, that's totally in character for Ponder Stibbons. He's a computer geek, not a jock. In previous books he has been introduced as someone who will happily spend a night sitting at the keyboard with a cold pizza by his side and a few other colleagues napping with their heads on the table around him. Sports are not his world. When he must move a ball from point A to point B, he'll do it by using Hex, not his feet, and it would be completely beyond him to direct a whole team of would-be athletes. He's cerebral, not physical, and that does not make him ridiculous at all, and neither does that make him an idiot.
And I've been meaning to point out something else, as well. Someone said that Ponder Stibbons is ridiculed, in UA, because when Nutt comes back we are told that Ponder was incapable of training the team in Nutt's absence. That's not true, that's totally in character for Ponder Stibbons. He's a computer geek, not a jock. In previous books he has been introduced as someone who will happily spend a night sitting at the keyboard with a cold pizza by his side and a few other colleagues napping with their heads on the table around him. Sports are not his world. When he must move a ball from point A to point B, he'll do it by using Hex, not his feet, and it would be completely beyond him to direct a whole team of would-be athletes. He's cerebral, not physical, and that does not make him ridiculous at all, and neither does that make him an idiot.
A
The bit with Margolotta was...well...padding and Exposition. (I am squeazy to re-read that part, but am willing to do for a better analysis)
The bit with Ponder...yes, that was I again. And I stand to my view that he is ridiculed. It's the way the scene runs. If he would have said that he couldn't train them because of the above, or even because of all his other jobs, no problem.
It's the whole -he couldn't do so because he couldn't remember all the things the orc came up with- that bugs me so much. (and as i have discovered I am not alone with that)
It implies that Ponder can't even tell them -just do what you did the last few days- or something along the lines.
And in addition(and this is from a review I read on amazon.co.uk or com, will try to find it again):
(paraphrased) Stibbons's reasons for being unable to train the team rid [the orc] of all reponsibilty for the training-gone-wrong, as the training couldn't take place of faulty memory, not because of the person to jump in being too busy elsewise which was known to [the orc]
This is exactly what bugs me about that bit. That the story (to me) doesn't even allow the orc to make a mistake and always has him in the right.
EDIT: I hope my thoughts were in order and comprehensible here. I tend to get lost on the way.
The bit with Ponder...yes, that was I again. And I stand to my view that he is ridiculed. It's the way the scene runs. If he would have said that he couldn't train them because of the above, or even because of all his other jobs, no problem.
It's the whole -he couldn't do so because he couldn't remember all the things the orc came up with- that bugs me so much. (and as i have discovered I am not alone with that)
It implies that Ponder can't even tell them -just do what you did the last few days- or something along the lines.
And in addition(and this is from a review I read on amazon.co.uk or com, will try to find it again):
(paraphrased) Stibbons's reasons for being unable to train the team rid [the orc] of all reponsibilty for the training-gone-wrong, as the training couldn't take place of faulty memory, not because of the person to jump in being too busy elsewise which was known to [the orc]
This is exactly what bugs me about that bit. That the story (to me) doesn't even allow the orc to make a mistake and always has him in the right.
EDIT: I hope my thoughts were in order and comprehensible here. I tend to get lost on the way.
Well, I'll have to go home and take the book out and read the Ponder bit again. But, if I remember correctly: Ponder did not get involved at all in the training of the team, he delegated the whole thing to Nutt, when the team was first formed. So he had next to no experience at all when, in the absence of Nutt, he had to take over the training. And, even if he is younger, more practical and into new and modern things, first and foremost, he is a wizard and, as such, thinks that walking down the stairs to the dining room constitutes healthy, invigorating exercise and just the thing to work up an appetite. The only person remotely into sports in that university is Ridcully, and I suspect that's where the "running on the spot" idea came from - Ponder must have seen him doing that someday (when the character Ridcully was first introduced, we were told that he was in the habit of jogging in the morning, as well as shooting every blessed thing that ventured within range) and thought, as a complete outsider might, that this must be sports, sure enough.
As for the way the scene runs - well, it's Pratchett! We expect a belly laugh now and again! We hope and wait for it, and we laugh at the expense of most of the characters - Ridcully, the Dean, the Senior Wrangler, Macarona, that Music Professor, whatshisname, almost everyone from the University, as a matter of fact. It doesn't mean that we don't respect them. Why should Ponder be an exception? I certainly have respect for Ridcully, and - you remember in Night Watch, I think it was, a scene where Ridcully gets blown out of his building when in his bath, and lands outside still in the bathtub, wearing nothing but his hat, and there are all those people present, and he stands up, not realizing that he is naked, and refuses to listen when someone points out this fact, declaring that if a wizard has his hat on, that is all the attire he needs? Getting ridiculed is the lot of a Pratchett character. It's all in good fun.
As for the way the scene runs - well, it's Pratchett! We expect a belly laugh now and again! We hope and wait for it, and we laugh at the expense of most of the characters - Ridcully, the Dean, the Senior Wrangler, Macarona, that Music Professor, whatshisname, almost everyone from the University, as a matter of fact. It doesn't mean that we don't respect them. Why should Ponder be an exception? I certainly have respect for Ridcully, and - you remember in Night Watch, I think it was, a scene where Ridcully gets blown out of his building when in his bath, and lands outside still in the bathtub, wearing nothing but his hat, and there are all those people present, and he stands up, not realizing that he is naked, and refuses to listen when someone points out this fact, declaring that if a wizard has his hat on, that is all the attire he needs? Getting ridiculed is the lot of a Pratchett character. It's all in good fun.
Yep, read the Ponder bit again. It's pretty much as I remembered. Besides, I see that Ponder has quite a lengthy conversation with Nutt and his friends, in which he does not seem stupid or ridiculous at all, just worried and concerned, and it isn't until he comes to the bit about training the team that he comes across as out of his depth and baffled, BECAUSE he doesn't "get" sports at all. At least, that's how it all feels to me.
A
It has a sour taste to me that it had to be -because he can't remember what the orc comes up with- instead of -he has other things to do- or -he just has no idea of sports-. As said, it feels as if that answer was picked to portray Ponder as someone without any bit of imagination. But YMMV, of course
(If you want a full explanation, PM me ))
(If you want a full explanation, PM me
))