Vetinari
- Thread starter alicenanjing
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Well, when I get involved in an imagined world I like to know it remains in good, trustworthy hands after I put the last book down. We see promise of continuity with Tiffany eventually becoming the old wise witch as she saw herself in I Shall Wear Midnight, Ponder ready to run UU all by himself (or via some other figurehead), the Watch becoming a stable organization that no longer depends on Vimes - it has both Carrot and Angua as captains and Detritus training the recruits, etc. But the city of Ankh Morpork still depends on Vetinari running it. While many people prefer his way of doing things to his predecessors it isn't clear anyone knows how he runs the city, or if some do - that they'd be able to take over after him.
Right on, cabbagehead. The thing is, you can't wait until Vetinari dies or gets too old to rule to find a successor. The reason being the same reason why nobody tries very seriously to replace Vetinari: there simply isn't anyone around who could do his job one half as effectively. This means you can't just wait until he drops dead and then look around and say: okay, boys and girls, who wants a promotion? You have to find a likely lad (or gel) with just the right mix of talents, background and potential and then train them for twenty years or so and get them to face all sorts of dangers, problems, challenges and aggravation to see if and when they'll crack under the strain. And then, of course, there's always the chance that your candidates will decide that all this is just not worth it, it's too much trouble for the sake of a bunch of ungrateful citizens who can't be bothered to appreciate them, and go and manage the family estates instead. So you may have to start again.
Considering everything Pratchett has done in the AM books, and the fact Vimes is unwillingly promoted time and time again, I suspect he would offer it to him.
Vimes wouldn't accept, of course, but would he be FORCED to?
But if Vetinari left DW, then we would know Pratchett's writing career is over. In fact it might already be, what with Snuff on the shelves and him becoming more and more unable.
Vimes wouldn't accept, of course, but would he be FORCED to?
But if Vetinari left DW, then we would know Pratchett's writing career is over. In fact it might already be, what with Snuff on the shelves and him becoming more and more unable.
"Unable"? 
That might be your opinion, but I certainly don't agree. I didn't like Making Money much, but I don't see it as a deterioration of Terry's creative abilities. And his other recent books have been excellent - in my opinion.
I know some people didn't like Snuff, but I thought it was excellent. Don't write Terry off so easily.
That might be your opinion, but I certainly don't agree. I didn't like Making Money much, but I don't see it as a deterioration of Terry's creative abilities. And his other recent books have been excellent - in my opinion.
I know some people didn't like Snuff, but I thought it was excellent. Don't write Terry off so easily.
I don't think it's offensive at all to speculate on why one believes an author's skills are deteriorating. Most authors' skills decline as they age or if their mental abilities become impaired due to alcoholism of substance abuse (just read the later novels of William Faulkner for evidence of serious literary decline for both reasons). It's nearly impossible to keep up a high level of ability, particularly if you've written as many books as Pterry has.
In any case, Pterry has been very open about discussing how Alzheimer's has affected him and how it has affected his writing. He can no longer "type" stories and instead must dictate them, which is an entirely different way of creating a narrative and one that can often lead to narrative inconsistencies and excesses, since he can no longer physically 'edit' what he's written. Like many others, I believe that while Alzheimer's has not impaired his ability to write books, or to even create compelling stories, I do believe that what I and many others see as a drop in the level of quality in Unseen Academicals and Snuff at least may be attributed, in part, to his condition. I believe that his recent YA adult books (ISWM and Nation) were 'truer to form' because they probably were subjected to a strong YA editorial presence that may have toned down some of the excesses. I don't believe that anyone is truly editing his adult books with a firm hand, which would explain their many narrative problems.
Again, the fact that he can still produce books at all is something to be cheered and when a new book is published, it should still be a cause for celebration. But that doesn't mean even dedicated readers have to take a fanboy attitude toward everything and refrain from criticism and speculation on why they see this apparent deterioration occurring. If you disagree with it, fine. Is that what literary discussions are all about?
As a very public figure, Pterry is subject to any kind of speculation about the reasons why they feel his writing has suffered that readers can offer. If people believe he's writing BETTER because he has Alzheimer's, that's a perfectly legitimate point of view as well.
In any case, Pterry has been very open about discussing how Alzheimer's has affected him and how it has affected his writing. He can no longer "type" stories and instead must dictate them, which is an entirely different way of creating a narrative and one that can often lead to narrative inconsistencies and excesses, since he can no longer physically 'edit' what he's written. Like many others, I believe that while Alzheimer's has not impaired his ability to write books, or to even create compelling stories, I do believe that what I and many others see as a drop in the level of quality in Unseen Academicals and Snuff at least may be attributed, in part, to his condition. I believe that his recent YA adult books (ISWM and Nation) were 'truer to form' because they probably were subjected to a strong YA editorial presence that may have toned down some of the excesses. I don't believe that anyone is truly editing his adult books with a firm hand, which would explain their many narrative problems.
Again, the fact that he can still produce books at all is something to be cheered and when a new book is published, it should still be a cause for celebration. But that doesn't mean even dedicated readers have to take a fanboy attitude toward everything and refrain from criticism and speculation on why they see this apparent deterioration occurring. If you disagree with it, fine. Is that what literary discussions are all about?
As a very public figure, Pterry is subject to any kind of speculation about the reasons why they feel his writing has suffered that readers can offer. If people believe he's writing BETTER because he has Alzheimer's, that's a perfectly legitimate point of view as well.
A
On a note of the quality of the recent books and Sir Terry's Alzheimer's:
Seeing what makes the past 3-6 novels (depending if you count the YA books too) different from other works (exploration-depth of themes, how thinks fit together, subtlety of humour, kind of humour, general style etc) the possibility that those were rather a joke to flip of the publisher is there, too. As in, the publisher demanded a certain theme/moral and all that in a short amount of time.
Sir Terry is one of the few authors out there who would go and write the (from an analytic POV at least) worst possible thing out of spite.
Seeing what makes the past 3-6 novels (depending if you count the YA books too) different from other works (exploration-depth of themes, how thinks fit together, subtlety of humour, kind of humour, general style etc) the possibility that those were rather a joke to flip of the publisher is there, too. As in, the publisher demanded a certain theme/moral and all that in a short amount of time.
Sir Terry is one of the few authors out there who would go and write the (from an analytic POV at least) worst possible thing out of spite.
I can't possibly see how any publisher could tell an author who has sold millions of millions of books and has an entire commercial empire built around his concepts what to write or to impose a deadline. Quite likely the opposite is true--Pterry writes what he wants, however he wants it, with little or no editorial feedback, and with no other motivation (besides selling books) than to put out there what he thinks is quality work.
Tonyblack said:
"Unable"?
That might be your opinion, but I certainly don't agree. I didn't like Making Money much, but I don't see it as a deterioration of Terry's creative abilities. And his other recent books have been excellent - in my opinion.
I know some people didn't like Snuff, but I thought it was excellent. Don't write Terry off so easily.
That might be your opinion, but I certainly don't agree. I didn't like Making Money much, but I don't see it as a deterioration of Terry's creative abilities. And his other recent books have been excellent - in my opinion.
I know some people didn't like Snuff, but I thought it was excellent. Don't write Terry off so easily.
I am not implying that his books are getting worse - that's a different debate.
I know all that, but maybe... early retirement? Not impossible.
And as we know Vetinari has a history of disappointing the guilds...
but yeah, we would know that if Vetinari left that would be the last book.
Based on the Vimes books I've read it makes me think that he is preparing Vimes to lead something big. Maybe not the city, but something else - other than the Watch.
And as we know Vetinari has a history of disappointing the guilds...
but yeah, we would know that if Vetinari left that would be the last book.
Based on the Vimes books I've read it makes me think that he is preparing Vimes to lead something big. Maybe not the city, but something else - other than the Watch.
I think we saw the last of Vimes - he is a super-watchman and a happy family man. The work of his life (well, since his awakening in Guards! Guards!) is stable - the Watch is at a point it can continue without him (though someone would need to replace him in his ambassadorial function if he were to leave). The only sub-series that is yet incomplete is Moist's story, really. If Pratchett writes anything that is set in Ankh Morpork Vimes may have a cameo, but I don't think we'll see him as a main character again.
You're right about one thing alice, it wouldn't be very good if we could guess where TP is going with his characters. I do know one sure thing, nothing anyone ever speculates on is ever right. I've never considered for a moment that TP would replace Vetinari, especially if the only reason is he's getting on a bit. The phrase 'Sharp as a tack' springs to mind.
The History Monks would have to intervene at such an important juncture in Discworld history, surely.
Death could do the job if anthropomorphic personifications were allowed. Susan Sto Helit probably could too.
As people have mentioned, Vimes would certainly be in the running but would decline (as would Carrot), and Nobby Nobbs would have a strong party of backers.
If Ankh Morpork did become a democracy the potential for satire of American style presidential campaigns is immense... Perhaps with the introduction of the AM version of TV transmitted via the clacks?
Death could do the job if anthropomorphic personifications were allowed. Susan Sto Helit probably could too.
As people have mentioned, Vimes would certainly be in the running but would decline (as would Carrot), and Nobby Nobbs would have a strong party of backers.
If Ankh Morpork did become a democracy the potential for satire of American style presidential campaigns is immense... Perhaps with the introduction of the AM version of TV transmitted via the clacks?
prajuvikas said:
After reading the replies here, it occurs to me that Vetinari's succession would make an excellent polt for a book in itself!
Anyway, I don't think Vimes would enter the equation - he hasn''t got a diplomatic bone in his body, he would go and make some terrible international blunder before his first week is out, and Vetinari knows that, and he only sends Vimes abroad on some diplomatic mission when he wants the boat rocked anyway.
If such a thing were to happen like Vetinari standing down/retiring/being assassinated (and I personally think it never will, I'm just playing Devils Advocate here), then the logical person to take over would be Lady Margolotta. This has plot value in itself like;
- why would she leave Uberwald?
How would she manipulate the guilds and nobles into accepting her?
How would Vimes react to having a vampire for his boss?
Was she involved in 'deposing' (for want of a better word) Vetinari?
