Vimes and Vetinari - friends, enemies or what?
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Crys made some good points about how Vimes hates all the hoopla and politics that Vetinari has to endure. Vimes hasn't the patience for all that and only does it because he is FORCED to by Vetinari or Sybil. And he will get out of it if he has ANY chance to do so.
That wouldn't bide well for someone who may or may not succeed Vetinari.
Carrot is the only plausible successor of Vetinari.
Mspanners wrote:
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Doesn't that sound like Carrot?... though Carrot does it ever so nicely and with less threat. Carrot also sees the study of people in a scientific way (but with heart too) and he is really fascinated with people and thier behaviour and why they do what they do.... and through this he gets people's confidence as part of his job in the Watch. All skills applicable as the Patrichian. He would be a likable and liked leader, and still get his own way just as Vetinari does.
And if he found out about his "connection" I feel he would "Do the right thing" because when it all comes down to it he is as devoted to the City as Vimes and Vetinari... perhaps even on a larger scale because he has the history of the dwarves/Koom Valley to encompass and I can see him reaching out beyond the City on a political level and take Ank-Morpork a step further. A human who followed the rules and fitted in to become a dwarf and who thinks of himself AS a dwarf first and foremost? He would fit in as the Patrichian just as easily. And as he has started out as a "man amongst the people" and with his tact and talent at getting people to do what he wants (politically) he can reach out on both levels.
As far as Vimes and Vetinari go... they compliment each other. They are neve enemies.
Years ago we had an analysis of our positions done in our office. My two supers and me. Its called the something or other triangle. One gets the nitty gritty done... all the major decisions fought for with the hierachy CEO's and everything laid out financially for the complete overview of the "City" and alot of politics involved with unions and the CEO's ; one was the DOER. Knew what had to be done and did it... hands on... (his 'watch' being a few hunded employees) and one was the facilitator... that was me. I made sure that what B. needed to make sure what A. wanted done was available and vice versa. (does that make me Drumknott?) no idea.
Interesting thread though.
That wouldn't bide well for someone who may or may not succeed Vetinari.
Carrot is the only plausible successor of Vetinari.
Mspanners wrote:
.
Doesn't that sound like Carrot?... though Carrot does it ever so nicely and with less threat. Carrot also sees the study of people in a scientific way (but with heart too) and he is really fascinated with people and thier behaviour and why they do what they do.... and through this he gets people's confidence as part of his job in the Watch. All skills applicable as the Patrichian. He would be a likable and liked leader, and still get his own way just as Vetinari does.
And if he found out about his "connection" I feel he would "Do the right thing" because when it all comes down to it he is as devoted to the City as Vimes and Vetinari... perhaps even on a larger scale because he has the history of the dwarves/Koom Valley to encompass and I can see him reaching out beyond the City on a political level and take Ank-Morpork a step further. A human who followed the rules and fitted in to become a dwarf and who thinks of himself AS a dwarf first and foremost? He would fit in as the Patrichian just as easily. And as he has started out as a "man amongst the people" and with his tact and talent at getting people to do what he wants (politically) he can reach out on both levels.
As far as Vimes and Vetinari go... they compliment each other. They are neve enemies.
Years ago we had an analysis of our positions done in our office. My two supers and me. Its called the something or other triangle. One gets the nitty gritty done... all the major decisions fought for with the hierachy CEO's and everything laid out financially for the complete overview of the "City" and alot of politics involved with unions and the CEO's ; one was the DOER. Knew what had to be done and did it... hands on... (his 'watch' being a few hunded employees) and one was the facilitator... that was me. I made sure that what B. needed to make sure what A. wanted done was available and vice versa. (does that make me Drumknott?) no idea.
Interesting thread though.
Sorry, Del, hate to disagree with you, but Carrot (was) meant for KINGSHIP not PATRICIANSHIP.
Besides his looks, his charisma is his only gift. He can only have influence over people when he is confronting them directly. Because he truly believes that everyone is, at heart, a good person, he is not someone who understands the strings that need to be pulled behind the scenes to maintain and wield true political power. In the short term, he might be able to get certain groups (like trolls and dwarves) to agree with him on certain issues, but, against AM's conspiratorial classes, he wouldn't stand a chance if he tried to do anything that wasn't in their best interests. He knows his limitations as a potential ruler, which is why he has never claimed the throne for himself.
Vimes also lacks Vetinari's Machiavellian skills. He is able to succeed at diplomacy simply by being honest and leveraging the Discworld's need of someone like him to bring the blunt truth to the matter. He's certainly succeeding in his diplomatic efforts (otherwise, he wouldn't have been assigned this role in Monstroust Regiment or serving as mediator in the Troll/Dwarf peace negotiations), but he's not a politician at heart (although he probably likes it more than he thinks).
Not that we will ever see a new patrician in the series, but if one were I'd still conjecture that Vetinari is grooming Moist von Lipwig to be the new Patrician for the Century of the Anchovy. Like Carrot, Moist knows how to manipulate people without making them aware they're being manipulated. Moist also understands the political and economic undercurrents that drive the city and can exploit them to his advantages. something Carrot doesn't have the intellect for and Vimes doesn't have the stomach for. The one thing Moist doesn't have is the ruthlessness of a Tyrant that's needed to do the bloody work when required (which is what Vetinari is constantly testing him to see if he does have the stomach for it). But Moist does have a strong sense of what gets the wheels of commerce moving--the most critically important attribute for the guild members who are most responsible for appointing a patrician. And, perhaps, the patrician of the future needs to break with the tyrannical ways of the past. After all, Vetinari is a very different kind of leader than the stupid, single-minded, violent idiots who preceded him. Who says that Moist might not succeed in his own way in the role?
J-I-B
Besides his looks, his charisma is his only gift. He can only have influence over people when he is confronting them directly. Because he truly believes that everyone is, at heart, a good person, he is not someone who understands the strings that need to be pulled behind the scenes to maintain and wield true political power. In the short term, he might be able to get certain groups (like trolls and dwarves) to agree with him on certain issues, but, against AM's conspiratorial classes, he wouldn't stand a chance if he tried to do anything that wasn't in their best interests. He knows his limitations as a potential ruler, which is why he has never claimed the throne for himself.
Vimes also lacks Vetinari's Machiavellian skills. He is able to succeed at diplomacy simply by being honest and leveraging the Discworld's need of someone like him to bring the blunt truth to the matter. He's certainly succeeding in his diplomatic efforts (otherwise, he wouldn't have been assigned this role in Monstroust Regiment or serving as mediator in the Troll/Dwarf peace negotiations), but he's not a politician at heart (although he probably likes it more than he thinks).
Not that we will ever see a new patrician in the series, but if one were I'd still conjecture that Vetinari is grooming Moist von Lipwig to be the new Patrician for the Century of the Anchovy. Like Carrot, Moist knows how to manipulate people without making them aware they're being manipulated. Moist also understands the political and economic undercurrents that drive the city and can exploit them to his advantages. something Carrot doesn't have the intellect for and Vimes doesn't have the stomach for. The one thing Moist doesn't have is the ruthlessness of a Tyrant that's needed to do the bloody work when required (which is what Vetinari is constantly testing him to see if he does have the stomach for it). But Moist does have a strong sense of what gets the wheels of commerce moving--the most critically important attribute for the guild members who are most responsible for appointing a patrician. And, perhaps, the patrician of the future needs to break with the tyrannical ways of the past. After all, Vetinari is a very different kind of leader than the stupid, single-minded, violent idiots who preceded him. Who says that Moist might not succeed in his own way in the role?
J-I-B
I think, rather, that they complement each other. Although I do like the image that you conjure:
VETINARI: You're running a very tight Watch at the moment, Vimes.
VIMES: Thank you, sir, and may I say how fetching you look in that black robe, is it new?
I cannot see them as either friends or enemies, though, to get back on topic.
VETINARI: You're running a very tight Watch at the moment, Vimes.
VIMES: Thank you, sir, and may I say how fetching you look in that black robe, is it new?
I cannot see them as either friends or enemies, though, to get back on topic.
