SPOILERS Wintersmith Discussion *Spoilers*

[poohcarrot]

So if Horace gets hold of a gonne and goes on a killing spree, it will all be Tiffany's fault (negligence test).

As for BP, they are well and truly screwed, already their shares have fallen 15%.

So the US, with the help of the UK, invades Iraq FOR oil.
Then the US, with the help of the UK, is invaded WITH oil.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well at least the Exxon Valdez spill up in Alaska was an all-American gig and look how Exxon wriggled and jiggled over culpability on their own doorstep...

This isn't the first oil spill in the Gulf, it won't be the last, and there'll always be a lot of screaming over who's to blame and has to cough up no matter which company or parent company is involved or where they're based

Remind me how the creation of fictional sentient cheese relates to negligent oil corporations not taking the blame for their sub-contractors inadequate H&S features?

 

[Tonyblack]

Interesting as this is - can we try and keep this discussion on topic please?

There's a thread elsewhere discussing the oil spill.

 

[poohcarrot]

I agree with Tony.

You naughty wimin should stick to topic.

So Wintersmith is......um.......er.....I can't think of anything else to say about it. Can someone raise an interesting point, please?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

You naughty wimin should stick to topic.

Git!

Interesting point? *looks back* OK then - Tiffany. So pooh's saying she's got Carrot Syndrome, in reverse, already in the 1st 2 books but is being annoyingly girlie and silly in this. In short she's a teenager so she's supposed to be silly whilst being totally obsessed with living up to her already massive rep as a precociously powerful witch and general 'nice' little girl...?

Quite a lot for an almost 13 year old to deal with, but I'd far rather Terry had just given her acne like most other kids. I do like the Feegles more and more (having hated them at first like everyone in Carpe Jugulum).

Another 'thing' is that Terry doesn't really do romance that well and so I suppose that's why, with Tiffany's attraction to the Wintersmith, I get this hugely nauseating mental image that I thought had been buried forever of one of my friends making cow eyes at a Donny Osmond poster.... Actually that was an important moment for me as I decided I'd never make teenybopper status ( I was far too busy making cow eyes at David Bowie - but at least he was an adult more or less )

Killing the Winter with a kiss was a good mettyfor though :twisted:

 

[poohcarrot]

She's suposed to be silly when she's 8, not 13. It's like she's physically grown older, but mentally regressed.

Ooh! I've just thought of something.
Was it Death in the boat? He was a skeleton, he spoke like Death, and I know Death can be everywhere at once, but it didn't feel like the actual Discworld Death.

 

[mystmoon]

Do different dimensions have a different Death? Although Death gets his moey "in pairs" so maybe he does do the ferryman's job to get paid

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

She's suposed to be silly when she's 8, not 13. It's like she's physically grown older, but mentally regressed.

Ooh! I've just thought of something.
Was it Death in the boat? He was a skeleton, he spoke like Death, and I know Death can be everywhere at once, but it didn't feel like the actual Discworld Death.

What planet do you live on again pooh? 13 year old girls are monstrous little hormonal termagants with colossal mood swings and a serious mirror addiction (whether or not they have acne) and massive mobile/cell dependencies. I'd love to see how you're handling your daughters when they get to that age - enjoy them when they're properly silly and sweet and think their dad's a big hero

It was Death in his Otherworld aspect of course - he goes all over and out of Discworld (in Reaperman and in Thief of Time) including Cori Celesti and the reaction to the Feegles is fairly typical of him I think. Maybe it's another small tailoring for young adults that makes him less 'punchy'?

 

[swreader]

One of the things which Terry does brilliantly (having gone through the teenage years with his own daughter) is to create a Tiffany who bounces back and forth between 4 and 34--a phenomenon characteristic in the teen age female of the species. We saw the first hints of this toward the end of Hat Full of Sky when Tiffany simultaneously sees herself as The Worst Person in the World and because she/hiver stole the old man's money and "killed" Miss Level--a melodramatic tragedienne.

If she doesn't understand why she danced or what makes it so significant, it's because she herself is changing physically and in her perceptions. She's disappointed that none of the other girls noticed the Tiffany shaped snowflakes, but still scared (not of Wintersmith) of Anagramma. But the Tiffany of the end of the book who demands the reckoning from Granny is a mature witch who has accepted the burdens of an adult and the powers of a witch.

Jan, you're absolutely right. Pooh obviously lives on Mars. I thought the "Carrot theory" was nonsense before when he brought it up in CJ and this book is a perfect example of that. I must admit that there were times I wanted to shake Tiffany until her teeth rattled, but that's the nature of teenagers--especially girls. There are a number of problems--jumbled or incomplete development, for example, with this book--but Tiffany's character is not one of them.

Roland, on the other hand, is not a good depiction of a teenage boy--and his character is little more than a deus ex machina because Terry is trying to do too much. Roland deserves better development, even if he's having to play the part of a hero. As it is, he is far too much only a silly boy.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think that Roland's fight against the Bogles and the real hatred he expresses is coming in large part from Terry's growing awareness of the progress of his disease. It seems to me that he tries to do too many different things, different story lines, in this book--and they don't fit together well, and none are completely developed. It's a problem that continues to grow worse in Making Money.

 

[Tonyblack]

I like Roland in this one. This is the biggest development of his character in the series and he's growing into a likeable chap. The Feegles, in teaching him to be a hero, seem to have turned him into a man. I wish that Terry had written what happened when he got back as I suspect he gave his aunts a serious talking to.

I'm not sure about Carrot Syndrome - although I do agree that it does exist with Carrot. We see a new side to Granny in this book (who'd have thought she'd be a cat person? ) and I think there is more room for development there.

Tiffany is certainly going through changes that would probably explain a lot about her behaviour, but as far as dancing with the Wintersmith is concerned - this isn't so much her being stupid as (as Granny explains to Miss Tick) the resonance of the Chalk that is very much part of Tiffany, vibrating with the changes of the seasons. Granny points out just how important a witch Tiffany is to the Chalk, mainly because she is the ONLY witch the Chalk has.

 

[raisindot]

Well, here are my two bits about the book....


>
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....Nah, I got nothin'.




J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

What planet do you live on again pooh? 13 year old girls are monstrous little hormonal termagants with colossal mood swings and a serious mirror addiction (whether or not they have acne) and massive mobile/cell dependencies. I'd love to see how you're handling your daughters when they get to that age - enjoy them when they're properly silly and sweet and think their dad's a big hero

Jan, you're absolutely right. Pooh obviously lives on Mars. I thought the "Carrot theory" was nonsense before when he brought it up in CJ and this book is a perfect example of that. I must admit that there were times I wanted to shake Tiffany until her teeth rattled, but that's the nature of teenagers--especially girls. There are a number of problems--jumbled or incomplete development, for example, with this book--but Tiffany's character is not one of them.

(Argh! A double-pronged attack from the "naughty wimin". Must have been something I said.
Nevermind, I'm sure J-I-B, as a male, will come to my defence......um....then again......maybe not.
Oh well, I'll just have to agree with them I suppose....)

You two are absolutely correct. I am on a different planet.

While you two are chuntering away about 13 year-old girls on planet Earth, the planet I'm on is called D-I-S-C-W-O-R-L-D! On my planet, Lu-Tse does not suddenly suffer from middle-aged angst, buy a sporty horse-and-cart and start knocking off some young strumpet, Vimes does not fail to get his man/dwarf/other sentinent being, and Tiffany Aching DOES NOT act like a big girly!!

The continuity is shot to pieces. If it had been the first book, no problem. But it wasn't.

Even after behaving like a silly, soppy girly all book, she finally kills the Wintersmith and appears to revert to normal, then at the end, if Granny hadn't been there, she might only have gone and done it all again!

(I did like Roland too, though)

 

[swreader]

While you two are chuntering away about 13 year-old girls on planet Earth, the planet I'm on is called D-I-S-C-W-O-R-L-D! On my planet, Lu-Tse does not suddenly suffer from middle-aged angst, buy a sporty horse-and-cart and start knocking off some young strumpet, Vimes does not fail to get his man/dwarf/other sentinent being, and Tiffany Aching DOES NOT act like a big girly!!

The continuity is shot to pieces. If it had been the first book, no problem. But it wasn't.

Even after behaving like a silly, soppy girly all book, she finally kills the Wintersmith and appears to revert to normal, then at the end, if Granny hadn't been there, she might only have gone and done it all again!

(I did like Roland too, though)

Pooh, I agree that Tiffany's character changes in ways that are hard to understand. And I really think that the other witches she apparently lived with (Miss Pullunder and Old Mother Dismass) deserve more than a passing mention. But I think there is another reason for the way Tiffany acts in this book--one that makes a great deal of sense and that makes her behavior understandable.

Tiffany is wearing the necklace when she goes to the dance--and she has unconsciously turned the necklace into a sort of talisman -- the visible link to her hills. It even takes Granny a while to understand that Tiffany could no more have refrained from dancing at the Winter Morris than the land can escape from the dance of the seasons. Granny describes her to Miss Tick as follows:

"A witch who won't wear black. No, it's blue and green for her, like green grass under a blue sky. She calls to the strength of her hills, all the time. An' they calls to her! Hills that was once alive, Miss Tick! They feels the rhythm of the Dance, an' so in her bones does she, if she did but know it. And this shapes her life, even here! She could not help but tap her feet! The land taps its feet to the Dance of the seasons!"

And it is through the horse that Wintersmith finds her the first time. Suddenly she is confronted with an elemental who thinks he's in love with her, and she begins to have powers of generation that no other witch has ever had. No wonder she's confused and bewildered. No one else has ever had that experience.

She is hardly a silly immature girl through the whole book! She sees through Granny's rather nasty trick on Mrs. Earwig. Granny (who shows no concern for Miss Treason's people) uses Tiffany and Anagramma to get back at a witch she dislikes because Mrs. Earwig doesn't follow Granny's pattern. It may have a sensible reason, but the central reason is to "get back" at Granny's challenger. Tiffany sees through the trick immediately and protests (to Miss Tick) that it's not fair. But she deals with the education of Anagrama and welds the coven into a group who can deal with the terrible problems caused by the Wintersmith. And she does all this--as do the other young witches--without much help from the older witches. Furthermore, she has to deal with the fact that she has the cornucopia and some of Summer's powers.

She accepts her responsibilities when she takes the necklace back from Granny and throws it herself into the river. And she knows, immediately that Wintersmith has found her when she touches the necklace again. She acts responsibly, warns her father about the sheep, and then uses Granny's transfer of heat to break the power of the Wintersmith.

And at the end, she makes Granny promise to show her how to take away pain (something no other witch than Granny can do as well) AS A RECKONING! And as Tiffany watches the spring Morris, and briefly sees the Wintersmith and Lady Summer she finds her feet tapping again. But this time Granny has taken her so that she can escape the effect of this change of the seasons -- by keeping her foot still.

But I think that Terry makes a rather serious error in ending the book with the "heroic" task of the Feegles as he did with leaving us with a silly image of Roland in the armor that doesn't fit and makes him waddle like a duck.

 

[poohcarrot]

She is hardly a silly immature girl through the whole book! She sees through Granny's rather nasty trick on Mrs. Earwig. Granny (who shows no concern for Miss Treason's people) uses Tiffany and Anagramma to get back at a witch she dislikes because Mrs. Earwig doesn't follow Granny's pattern. It may have a sensible reason, but the central reason is to "get back" at Granny's challenger. Tiffany sees through the trick immediately and protests (to Miss Tick) that it's not fair.

Eh? Don't agree with that at all. If anything, Granny helps Anagramma by getting Tiffany annoyed enough to help her enemy. The fact that Anagramma is eventually a success and even helps Tiffany escape the Wintersmith, is all down to Granny's headology.

If you can't see how Granny's manipulation was beneficial to all witches, I'll explain it if needed. 8)

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

You're not wrong pooh

But swreader's right as well - Granny knew that Tiffany would sort Annagramma (helped by the other young witches) but the driving reason behind her manouevres were certainly malicious towards Mrs Earwig and her methods as Annagramma had to learn the practical/headology side to witching from scratch.

I said in the CJ discussion that Miss Treason seemed to be a pretty powerful witch, despite her frailities and I'm wondering now whether perhaps Granny might have been one of her apprentices as well as they both have a similar approach/talent for headology and borrowing.

The placing of Tiffany with Miss T as her last pupil (and the one to last longer than most of the recent ones) is highly significant I think, especially given that she knew her death was imminent. Also that Annagramma, although good at magic, is the only one of the young coven to have only had the one mentor. I think that all the established witches dislike Mrs. Earwig so intensely that they all excluded her from taking on any other trainees (and she was so disparaging of the other youngsters abilities that she wasn't at all worried about this).

So Annagramma's having a rough ride inheriting Miss Treason's patch was high likely to have been a collective slap in the face from all the other senior witches (especially as most of the witches who'd had Tiffany under their wing must have known she was always destined for the Chalk) so Granny's nominating Tiffany for the cottage was an obvious no-no and never intended to succeed - Granny knew it wouldn't happen, but the point was made for Mrs. Earwig's 'benefit' (rather than to shame Annagramma), knowing Annagramma would get the cottage anyway and make a right mess of it unless the other girls helped her.

Granny wasn't alone in her opinion of Mrs. Earwig and the older witches were definitely not fans either so they must have seen that Granny wasn't serious because Tiffany wasn't at all suitable, being too young and too unconnected with the mountains - and they all wanted to see Mrs.Earwig methods crash and burn and for her only student (who does have ability) to have to change her attitude and be a proper witch...

 

[swreader]

Pooh and Jan--

I stand by my original statement. Granny is a very talented witch, and the "first among equals" of witches. But a warm, fuzzy people person she is not. And when Miss Tick tells Granny about Mrs. Eawig's plan to propose young Annagramma--she goes on to say "...Mrs. Earwig has quite a few followers these days. It's probably those books she writes. She makes witchcraft sound exciting." Granny then responds by indicating (among other things) that she will propose Tiffany.

And a technicality--

The placing of Tiffany with Miss T as her last pupil (and the one to last longer than most of the recent ones) is highly significant I think, especially given that she knew her death was imminent.

. Miss Treason only learns of her death approximately 3 or 4 days before it happens, giving her time to organize her funeral. She found the timing "most inconvenient". Further, there is no reason to doubt Tiffany's assessment of the reaction of the other witches to Granny & Mrs. Earwig, "Okay, a lot of witches didn't like Mrs. Earwig, but Granny Weatherwax didn't exactly have many friends either."

 

[poohcarrot]

What I think it is, SW, is that you just don't like Granny very much.

In CJ you were complaining she never said thank you to Oats, and now you are accusing her of "a rather nasty trick".

You seem to regard her as an ungrateful, spiteful and selfish woman.
I think you're totally wrong.

If Granny hadn't suggested Tiffany for the cottage, what would have happened? Would Tiffany have had the self-confidence to believe in herself and defeat the Wintersmith? Would Tiffany have offered to help Anagramma and get the other junior witches to help too?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Miss Treason only learns of her death approximately 3 or 4 days before it happens, giving her time to organize her funeral. She found the timing "most inconvenient". Further, there is no reason to doubt Tiffany's assessment of the reaction of the other witches to Granny & Mrs. Earwig, "Okay, a lot of witches didn't like Mrs. Earwig, but Granny Weatherwax didn't exactly have many friends either."

Of course Tiffany knew how the other witches would react - if she had been older and ready to take the final step into being a full-blown witch, if she had any deep ties to the village Miss Treason cared for and if she had not danced, then maybe she would have wanted to take over - but I very much doubt it, even if none of those factors were there. She had no real investment in her placement in respect of the people she would have been looking after - her attitude to the villagers lacked real interest or engagement. Also, the only time she gets really passionate about anything (beyond mooning about the snowflakes and roses and the Summer personification) is when the lambs are threatened... she just doesn't care enough about anything but her own land - all she was really concerned about was Annagramma not being up to the job, she didn't want it for herself at any stage, even though she knew she could have done it.

As for Miss Treason knowing when she'd die - she knew for certain a few days before yes, but the woman was 111!? Of course she knew she only had a little time left and so did all the other senior witches. Witches have a rough life - no making 130 like Windle Poons, enjoying the good life of endless faculty lunches.
In a way the incident with the Dance was Miss Treason's fault - she needed Tiffany's eyes so yes, she had to go with her, but she should have been a lot more upfront on what the deal was to the point of physically stopping Tiffany from dancing - but she wasn't strong enough to prevent that and this was the point at which she knew for sure that she was past it and that it was high time to go. For witches and wizards, knowing the time Death will come for you isn't like fixing up an appointment - they know he'll come for them, but it's also tied up in practicalities like any other human being. Look at Rincewind - he's seen Death enough times when he knew he was going to die, but his problem is that he's also got the Lady interfering so he always gets a reprieve and Death's getting pretty sick of showing up for nothing With Miss Treason, she'd been running on the dregs of her own myth-making/Boffo and having to borrow the whole time for decades so Tiffany's gaffe with the Dance was the trigger for her to go finally.

And when Miss Tick tells Granny about Mrs. Eawig's plan to propose young Annagramma--she goes on to say "...Mrs. Earwig has quite a few followers these days. It's probably those books she writes. She makes witchcraft sound exciting."

Who are the followers? Not the senior witches that's for sure. Mrs. Earwig's 'followers' are egocentric vain girls like Annagramma or even more the Diamanda Tockley ilk (from Lords & Ladies) where all they want is the fame and not the hard slog and headology. Which is why all the traditional witches can't stand the woman. The 'followers' are the impressionable wannabe-a-famous-enchantress type that like the glamourous side of things which has more to do with wizarding and that all true witches despise. Annagramma is a natural witch, but she has a whopping inferiority complex covered by arrogance, which is why she's able to recognise that she can't handle Miss Treason old beat with Mrs. Earwig's bogus methods and also why she's so jealous of Tiffany because she knows she's the real deal.

And going back to the L&L analogy - that's where Terry's already laid the foundations for the Tiffany books because he'd started to experiment with the rookie witch concept in that book with Diamanda (Annagramma #1) and Agnes, or rather the Perdita X Dream part of the duality, messing about with magic without any supervision or control. In L&L it was all Roundworld attitudes and witches growing up any old how - in the Tiffany series it's a graduate progression. Tiffany is already a witch when we first see her in Wee Free Men, because she's had an excellent role model in Granny Aching, but Miss Tick knows she needs help to learn witching properly, so bingo, in comes Granny and Nanny right at the end to see how Tiffany's done - then we get onto the bones of Tiffany's Progress and the round of apprenticeships for her as well as Petulia and the others, except Annagramma (I feel quite sorry for her actually as she's not really that confident under the earwig gloss as she knows that just what it is...). These books are an investigation into how witching is not all about the power, but knowing where and, most importantly, when it should be used. Mrs. Earwig has never learned this apparently and that is the real reason why Granny and the other witches cannot respect her in any way whatsoever. Granny may not win any witch popularity contests but she has earned and keeps on earning her peers' respect and that is why she's top of the heap - because the others know she's the best there is, but she doesn't impose her methods over any of the other witch ways, which are just as valid.

Granny (and possibly Nanny too) are also involved in Tiffany's round of placements to the point where I suspect Granny is actually Tiffany's prime tutor with all the others supplementing on the 'ordinary' aspects of witching that Granny isn't necessarily the best training option as her people skills are not good enough. Tiffany's beat will be amongst herdsfolk, so that aspect of witching is really important for her. Miss Treason's approach was an 'expert' placement in that field because she was the best at it. Granny Aching was better and that's why Tiffany's so exceptional because she learnt most from her. If Granny Aching had survived then all this apprenticeship scheme wouldn't have been needed at all, which is why Miss Tick's involvement is so important, because Tiffany wouldn't have made it on her own, despite being very talentend and strong...

 

[poohcarrot]

SW.

Just out of interest, you talk about Granny's nasty trick. What nasty trick are you talking about?

Granny said that Tiffany should get the cottage. That surely was an objective opinion based on the facts that Tiffany knew the people and knew about headology. Anagramma knew neither.

But Granny was over-ruled. She didn't make the choice to put Anagramma in the cottage. It was nothing to do with her.

So what was the nasty trick that Granny pulled?

I don't understand.

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Even after behaving like a silly, soppy girly all book, she finally kills the Wintersmith and appears to revert to normal, then at the end, if Granny hadn't been there, she might only have gone and done it all again!

I know im a bit behind on this thread and i have to go soon, but i just wanted to point out that in fact, the summer dance is just a traditional festival, as granny points out, ill have to check where when we unpack teh books againk, so nothing would have happened.