SPOILERS Wyrd Sisters Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
theoldlibrarian said:
Tonyblack said:
It's a question that I've asked myself as well. Of course it means that everyone in Lancre at the time is 15 years younger than they should be, so presumably, when Granny meets Ridcully in Lords and Ladies, she's 15 years younger than him relative to their meeting as youngsters. 
But yes there are all sorts of logical/logistical problems that Terry carefully avoids mentioning, like why people working in Ankh Morpork had suddenly sent home 15 years wages at once?
It's not really that important to know WS I think - I read somewhere that most English-speakers don't need to know Shakespeare because he's at the heart of the language - the number of phrases and motif's that we quote unconsciously, just in hamlet's soliloquy that Batty? quoted in another thread yesterday brought that home most effectively... 
The 2 plays that Terry deliberately references for the Witches books are Macbeth and Midsummer's Night Dream which are the only 2 plays of his I've ever been made to study and I hated Macbeth and thought MSD was just plain weird even though it had pure fantasy in there - but L&L is still my fave Witch book and as I've said it took me a while to accept WS because I didn't take to the satirisation because I knew the play
Terry's stamp balances the Bard's so no I don't think the allusions matter as such - just the way Terry translates them so you then interpret them in context to Discworld... :twisted:
The 2 plays that Terry deliberately references for the Witches books are Macbeth and Midsummer's Night Dream which are the only 2 plays of his I've ever been made to study and I hated Macbeth and thought MSD was just plain weird even though it had pure fantasy in there - but L&L is still my fave Witch book and as I've said it took me a while to accept WS because I didn't take to the satirisation because I knew the play
Terry's stamp balances the Bard's so no I don't think the allusions matter as such - just the way Terry translates them so you then interpret them in context to Discworld... :twisted:
Tonyblack said:
Can I ask you all if you thought that it was necessary to know Shakespeare's plays to enjoy the book?
The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?
The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?
Plus without "Out, out damded spot" the ongoing thing with the Duke's hand would just be weird - though I found it disturbing rather than funny on this rereading, taking a grater to your own hand is so wrong
You certainly get a lot more fun if you know the play, but then unlike Jan I think Macbeth is great - some wonderful use of language
Tonyblack said:
Can I ask you all if you thought that it was necessary to know Shakespeare's plays to enjoy the book?
The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?
The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?
WS in particular almost sort of requires knowledge at least of some of the plot (if not necessarily the actual lines) from Macbeth and Midsummer Night's Dream to get the most out of it. It may BE a parody (as has been discussion) but it does (verb) parody whole chunks of these plays' plots.
I think that may be part of the reason why some of the adult DW books are not always that popular among younger people (well, at least in the U.S.), or adults who don't have a deep knowledge of both U.S. and English culture, literature and history.
J-I-B
I mentioned MND and I did mean Lord and Ladies
Not too sure how MND specifically relates to WS except for the 'play within a play' thingie which seems to be a recycled motif as it's also in Hamlet of course... Like I was saying, Shakespearean themes are simply part of the scenery in the language so people 'know' him without knowing it's him - and so no prior knowledge needed as a good story is a good story is a good story :twisted:
Not too sure how MND specifically relates to WS except for the 'play within a play' thingie which seems to be a recycled motif as it's also in Hamlet of course... Like I was saying, Shakespearean themes are simply part of the scenery in the language so people 'know' him without knowing it's him - and so no prior knowledge needed as a good story is a good story is a good story :twisted:
Actually, I'm rather fond of Magrat in this one. I've always thought that it must take an awful lot of courage to be the 'New Age' type of witch that she is living so close to Granny Weatherwax.
I'm not sure if everyone noticed that the playwright is called Hwel - if you say that with a Welsh accent it sounds a lot like Will.
I also suspect that one of Terry's worst puns is in this book.
I'm not sure if everyone noticed that the playwright is called Hwel - if you say that with a Welsh accent it sounds a lot like Will.
I also suspect that one of Terry's worst puns is in this book.
I think my favourite character in the book is Granny Weatherwax, difficult as she is.
What does everyone else think about the relationships between the witches in this book? On rereading it I was surprised at how "nice" Granny is to Magrat. The quarrel between Granny and Nanny over how they were as girls doesn't seem to fit with how well they work together and their relationship later.
Tony - which pun are you thinking of?
What does everyone else think about the relationships between the witches in this book? On rereading it I was surprised at how "nice" Granny is to Magrat. The quarrel between Granny and Nanny over how they were as girls doesn't seem to fit with how well they work together and their relationship later.
Tony - which pun are you thinking of?
Oh, oh - don't say it, Tony, it's on the tip of my brain, I know this! It's very short and easily missed but once you see it, it screams out....
*whangs head on desk to remember*
Edited to add 20 minutes later: Dang! I can't remember, but I know this! I'm going to have to read it all over again....aaaaauuuggghh....
*whangs head on desk to remember*
Edited to add 20 minutes later: Dang! I can't remember, but I know this! I'm going to have to read it all over again....aaaaauuuggghh....
The witches, in this book, are interesting. Nanny seems to have arrived on Discworld fully formed and, to me, she doesn't seem to change much throughout the series. I wonder if Terry based on anyone in particular.
Granny is still developing, I think. You're right DJ - she does seem a little nicer - more tolerant and maybe not quite as clever as she is in the later books.
Magrat's character is due to change anyway. A lot happens to her that is going to be character changing. Meeting Verence, getting married, having a child and gaining more and more confidence. If anything, I think I like Magrat more in this one than Witches Abroad, where she seems much more of a 'wet hen'.
As a trio, it's again interesting as it's really a duo that is grudgingly allowing Magrat very limited access. Granny and Nanny, as we see in later books, are very different people, but they compliment each other, with Nanny being a bit like Dr Watson to Granny's Sherlock Holmes.
Magrat is sort of the new witch on the block. She is geographically a Lancre witch and, as the book says, their territories border each other, so have to give Magrat a certain amount of respect. But they don't exactly welcome her.
The other two keep secrets from her, such as the true relationship between Tomjon and Verence, which they seem aware of, but let Marat discover for herself.
Granny is still developing, I think. You're right DJ - she does seem a little nicer - more tolerant and maybe not quite as clever as she is in the later books.
Magrat's character is due to change anyway. A lot happens to her that is going to be character changing. Meeting Verence, getting married, having a child and gaining more and more confidence. If anything, I think I like Magrat more in this one than Witches Abroad, where she seems much more of a 'wet hen'.
As a trio, it's again interesting as it's really a duo that is grudgingly allowing Magrat very limited access. Granny and Nanny, as we see in later books, are very different people, but they compliment each other, with Nanny being a bit like Dr Watson to Granny's Sherlock Holmes.
Magrat is sort of the new witch on the block. She is geographically a Lancre witch and, as the book says, their territories border each other, so have to give Magrat a certain amount of respect. But they don't exactly welcome her.
The other two keep secrets from her, such as the true relationship between Tomjon and Verence, which they seem aware of, but let Marat discover for herself.
I was just going to ask if there was some reference to Shakespear in Hwel that I was missing because I'm not British. It seemed like a pretty obvious parody, but always seemed to be building up to a punchline that never came.
I think that Hwel's surname should have been "Axebrandisher" or "Spearchucker" or something.
I think that Hwel's surname should have been "Axebrandisher" or "Spearchucker" or something.
