SPOILERS Wyrd Sisters Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I think the reason we’re all having such trouble with what is the real relationship between Verence (2) and TomJohn is that Pratchett was, in fact, slipshod in his plotting here—but it’s in the same tradition as Shakespeare’s contrived happy endings in the comedies and settings like "the seacoast of Bohemia". In all fairness, this is an early novel, and has a fair number of typos and mistakes. Pratchett was still writing two novels a year at this time, and I don’t think he paid the attention to structural details and the development of themes that he did in later novels. The real answer is that Pratchett screwed up on this technical detail, but it doesn't make it a less effective book--just not as good as the later ones.
It seems pretty clear to me from the text that since Nanny delivered both babies, and since she says that the Queen told her who TomJohn’s father was (the Old Fool), that the boys are half-brothers. The key that Pratchett uses to make the trick plausible is the resemblance of the two men—which if they are approximately the same age and have the same father—would makes sense.
But the math doesn’t work. The Fool (Vernence2) has been sent to school and has served at least for some period of time in the household of the Felmets. That means he probably is somewhere around 25 when TomJohn then aged something less than 2 was given to the Vitollers. He would thus have been around 40, but for Granny's trick with time. But this is a novel and the author needs the resemblance to bring about the denoument. Shakespeare would have understood perfectly.
One other thing I think is significant. Granny has the same drive to excel and to see herself as smarter than anyone else in this novel that she does in the later books. But here, Pratchett pokes a bit of fun at her. Not only does Magrat actually rescue Nanny with her magic on the door (while Granny is late getting there). And when Granny tries to put her spellcasting ability down—“Can’t see it working. I’d have tried the stones if it was me, but—“ Magrat’s spell works like crazy. Granny has to yell at them to run and take cover. And once the land insists on a king, Granny is insistent that TomJohn must be that King and has no doubt that she can make that happen, even if she has to cast a time spell to do it. And she refuses to believe he doesn't want to be King until he acts the king and commands her to bring Hwel to him. It is in fact Magrat and Nanny primarily who solve the problem, and Granny has to fall in and support them.
Pratchett never lets us forget, in this novel or any other, that Granny may be very wise and very powerful, but she can be wrong.
It seems pretty clear to me from the text that since Nanny delivered both babies, and since she says that the Queen told her who TomJohn’s father was (the Old Fool), that the boys are half-brothers. The key that Pratchett uses to make the trick plausible is the resemblance of the two men—which if they are approximately the same age and have the same father—would makes sense.
But the math doesn’t work. The Fool (Vernence2) has been sent to school and has served at least for some period of time in the household of the Felmets. That means he probably is somewhere around 25 when TomJohn then aged something less than 2 was given to the Vitollers. He would thus have been around 40, but for Granny's trick with time. But this is a novel and the author needs the resemblance to bring about the denoument. Shakespeare would have understood perfectly.
One other thing I think is significant. Granny has the same drive to excel and to see herself as smarter than anyone else in this novel that she does in the later books. But here, Pratchett pokes a bit of fun at her. Not only does Magrat actually rescue Nanny with her magic on the door (while Granny is late getting there). And when Granny tries to put her spellcasting ability down—“Can’t see it working. I’d have tried the stones if it was me, but—“ Magrat’s spell works like crazy. Granny has to yell at them to run and take cover. And once the land insists on a king, Granny is insistent that TomJohn must be that King and has no doubt that she can make that happen, even if she has to cast a time spell to do it. And she refuses to believe he doesn't want to be King until he acts the king and commands her to bring Hwel to him. It is in fact Magrat and Nanny primarily who solve the problem, and Granny has to fall in and support them.
Pratchett never lets us forget, in this novel or any other, that Granny may be very wise and very powerful, but she can be wrong.
I think you're forgetting the 15 years the kingdom was taken into the future, Sharlene. Whatever age the Fool was when Tomjon was handed over to the Vitollers, he's not that much older (a couple of years it seems) when he meets Tomjon and the company in Ankh-Morpork, because he didn't leave to go there until after the witches had done there magic. 
I quite like the bit where Tomjon tries his 'word' magic on the bandits and it doesn't work. There's the confidence of the troupe that Tomjon is going to sort things out, followed by the disbelief that the bandit leader is immune.
In some ways it parallels what happens with the witches after the rumours about them have been spread. Granny nearly gets knocked over by a cart because her Headology doesn't work any longer. In many ways, Tomjon's skills are not unlike Granny's Headology.
In some ways it parallels what happens with the witches after the rumours about them have been spread. Granny nearly gets knocked over by a cart because her Headology doesn't work any longer. In many ways, Tomjon's skills are not unlike Granny's Headology.
I'd just like to share that this was my first ever Discworld play. Our local group picked it for their spring production last year, sight unseen, and none of them had ever read a discworld book in their lives! I ended up getting roped in as an adviser and then co-opted on stage because there were more characters than actors.
To try and explain the Shakespearean undertones, then the Discworld overlay, then Stephen's abridgements, followed by the complications of cross-dressing due to a surfeit of actresses (e.g. Tomjon & Verence II) left the cast utterly convinced that the whole thing was a mistake. Most of the 'jokes' bypassed even the actors who gave them, despite my best efforts. By the time we did the dress rehearsal I just wanted to crawl into a hole & hibernate
We musty have done something right, though, the audiences not only laughed every night, they did so in all the right places for the right cues
A number of the 'actors' still couldn't work out why, though
To try and explain the Shakespearean undertones, then the Discworld overlay, then Stephen's abridgements, followed by the complications of cross-dressing due to a surfeit of actresses (e.g. Tomjon & Verence II) left the cast utterly convinced that the whole thing was a mistake. Most of the 'jokes' bypassed even the actors who gave them, despite my best efforts. By the time we did the dress rehearsal I just wanted to crawl into a hole & hibernate
We musty have done something right, though, the audiences not only laughed every night, they did so in all the right places for the right cues
A number of the 'actors' still couldn't work out why, though
That was the crazy part; it's not a big village and I know probably the majority of likely Discworld readers in it. They are very few. Nonetheless, the audience got every joke while the cast still had no idea...
On second thoughts, maybe that's a reflection on my abilities as an interpreter of things Discworldian...
On second thoughts, maybe that's a reflection on my abilities as an interpreter of things Discworldian...
